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calling all beings y'all

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and welcome back to calling all beings

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on a saturday afternoon i'm your host dj

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along with my amazing co-host nathan at

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a wave soul he's secret baby

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what's up y'all

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yes and today we are very happy

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to uh to welcome on one of the people

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that we admire somebody from uap uh uap

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media uk

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this man has written a book called

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nathan

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ufos before roswell can i get amen amen

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amen

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so party people put your hands together

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for northumbria's own the ucha to

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bevenburg in the uk

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graham

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randall

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yes

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hello

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how are you doing

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what's up graham

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good to see you hey great to see you

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both finally i get somebody uh on air

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the same age as me because rick doed he

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dude that guy said he said he was 84.

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71. he's not now hey you're doing it oh

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he said 71. for a tall tale now yeah

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okay 71. he lies about his age does he

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yeah oh that was cold graham that was a

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cool thing

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you just put a shot right across his bow

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gonna be like yo we gotta turn into the

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wind

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that's true no no one knows how old he

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is that's fair yeah that's a good yeah

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it's a state secret yeah and after we

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get into the meat and potatoes of this

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interview if you have something if you

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want to discuss that or you have some

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questions i don't know if you saw the

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episode but um

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we were we were quite moved and and with

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what not only what he revealed but the

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con the contrition that he showed

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relative to the campaign he was involved

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in uh which was a a part of his job

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yeah i watched i watched the first um

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half of it um so and i had i had a

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little time to actually watch the rest

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of it before advancing this but yeah he

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came

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um as he said he was quite contrite um

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how much of that is enact and how much

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is that is that kind of programmed into

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him yeah i don't know you know so i have

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to bear that in mind i think when i hear

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everything that comes out of people like

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that

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he's a mystery wrapped inside an enigma

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that's for sure yeah

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sorry go on no no no you go ahead please

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sorry if you said it was raining would

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you have to go outside and check you

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know it's that kind of thing you know

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sort of thing no i guess that's that's

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being unfair to him isn't it yeah i

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think it's being unfair because uh he

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said he was quite

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uh candid when he said uh how much how

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much information do you think that the

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us government should should reveal to

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the american people and he was quite

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candid and saying you know what there's

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a lot of things that they can't people

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can't know there's a lot of classified

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programs that are going on at all these

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different sites that he mentioned uh and

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that

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the reverse engineering and we just

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wouldn't want to release that

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information but he said the history of

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it from roswell until now and crashes

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that happened and what we actually

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really know a hundred percent and i

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think that's fair i think that's very

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fair because if you ask me that question

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i'd say the same thing

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oh very true the only the only thing was

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with rick doty is that because of his

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track record and what he said in the

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past and what's been sort of approved

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then you have to take everything he says

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with a pinch of salt so therefore you

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can be telling the truth 99 of the time

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it's not one percent and you don't know

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what that is and that's the only thing

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that spoils it for me is when i hear

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them and when i've heard them being

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interviewed by other people and by

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yourselves but they're just in the back

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of my mind that that's always yes but he

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said this before and it's not a trust

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issue it's just you know a historical

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issue and obviously because i i look at

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kind of things where they've

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subsequently been proved to be false in

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my book whereas before they were taken

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as paragons of virtue or rock-solid

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pieces of evidence and they turned out

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subsequently not to be uh whereas you

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know mr doty is you know he's actually

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had you know been proved that he

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actually did lie on behalf of the

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government on the air force or afosi and

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therefore you have to then just take

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with a little pinch of salt everything

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he says again he could be telling the

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truth but how do you know exactly how

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much truth that is well i can point one

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example he's in direct contrast with

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what the official statement by the

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government was what he told us i said

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give us your percentage he told us about

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how he was briefed into uh the crashes

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and the being that was recovered uh and

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the fact that there was two and one in

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an even more remote area of new mexico

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then corona which is very remote and

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that's in direct contrast to what the

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government's party line is

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so

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i mean yeah yeah

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it's interesting because i think i feel

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that the rick dodi thing to me sort of

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symbolizes where we are just in general

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with the topic right so it's it's almost

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like he's dodied himself right so like

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we

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you know you've created uh

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we've gone to this place and i think he

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talks about this a little bit in that

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interview but he hints at it that we've

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gotten to this place where we all are

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distrustful of what we hear and i think

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we we need to be you know we've got to

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be skeptical uh from what we hear from

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no matter who is saying it you know just

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you can't go into this topic without a

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sort of

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curiosity and also a healthy dose of

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skepticism

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i think we kind of in that way to

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certain degree we kind of owe rick a

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little bit of a favor because he's

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ensured that we're going to look at

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everything from this uh vantage point

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and not take it as gospel right out the

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gate

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and i will

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go ahead go ahead go ahead

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i just want to say one thing i wouldn't

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ask that you take the totality of what

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he said and say i'm going to base it on

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that

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we're also basing it on all the

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anecdotal evidence from the people that

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were present at the time that did

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interviews at the time the fact that

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they actually told us that that it

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happened by the way was the first thing

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and then they changed the story and if

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it's not true it's if it doesn't make

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sense it's because it's not true then

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they built this whole stupid campaign

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that i just like

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i laugh at when they talk about weather

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balloons and the secret program over it

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so

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when you compile all of that with him

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look at it from that angle what do you

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think about that graham

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i think it's true

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they've built up so as you say they

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built up so many stories and for him

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just maybe to cut through that and say

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look it's just that then that's got to

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count for something i think he's

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incredibly brave actually to come

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forward and keep coming forward after

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all that's been said and written about

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him over the years for somebody to still

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to be there and to take you know for

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people to take pot shots at him uh in

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public and in private you know that you

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know that's a brave man that i would be

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so you have to give him that at least

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but i still come back to the you know

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the kind of i'm not entirely convinced

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about everything he says and that's all

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i can say yeah

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that's fair enough but he might do he

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said he doesn't scare easily he told us

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would you

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yeah i mean just what he was talking

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about he's part of the the kind of um

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the combat controller um yeah exactly

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and he's talking about the power jumpers

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as well but the combat control it was

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quite intensive and it was quite a kind

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of well quite dangerous for you know in

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a sum of dangerous positions it was one

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of the most dangerous because you were

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right in the front at the first you know

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the first hurdle so

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somebody to actually do that from the

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get-go in the air force must have taken

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a bit of bottle um to to to kind of a uk

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phrase but you know so somebody like

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that then to be picked up by air force

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intelligence you know you're gonna have

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to have a bit of you know have some some

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metal um that you're not gonna you know

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take kind of sort of slingshots and and

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you know harsh words you know and just

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going to shrink them off aren't you so i

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agree yeah yeah i agree i mean hey he's

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he's got uh his place in ufo history and

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that is something

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we can't change and i do think it's

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interesting that he is willing to

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continue to engage uh i get a sense that

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that is a mixture of

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you know genuine interest in the topic

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itself as well as

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uh at least if you take him at his word

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a sense of um

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you know trying to write some of the

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wrongs of the past so that he's there's

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a little bit of a guilty conscience

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there i at least that that that's the

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way that i interpret what he's doing

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that's possible yeah but also he was

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obviously quite heavily invested in in

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terms of you know maybe the lies but he

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also might have come across some truths

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on on the road and he and he says he did

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so therefore that must pick your

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interest even if you you come into the

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into without any kind of preconception

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or even just a negative view of the

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phenomenon

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that must change your opinion surely

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all of us have lied in our lifetime

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every one of us has been deceptive for

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one reason or another he passed

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polygraphs that

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basically

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the highest level polygraph you're going

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to get is like federal law enforcement

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uh somebody like elizondo that gets that

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level of of of polygrapher um i've been

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through one of those by the way it's not

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a very pleasant experience because you

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have to talk about your deepest and

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darkest secrets and the key is not what

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you did you could tell them

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let's just say there's there's a there's

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a wide gulf of things you could talk

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about that you did wrong but you better

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talk about them because if you don't

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they're going to say is that all and

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that's when the little thing goes like

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that yeah so um he he's obviously proved

276
00:09:57,269 --> 00:09:54,800
that he could tell the truth his uh his

277
00:09:59,269 --> 00:09:57,279
job was to not tell the truth and he's

278
00:10:02,150 --> 00:09:59,279
paid the price for that both you know

279
00:10:03,990 --> 00:10:02,160
with but uh the man's had uh you know

280
00:10:07,829 --> 00:10:04,000
state police after that and then

281
00:10:10,470 --> 00:10:07,839
teaching college now uh and and uh so i

282
00:10:12,550 --> 00:10:10,480
find some credibility particularly when

283
00:10:15,110 --> 00:10:12,560
you combine that with all the

284
00:10:17,269 --> 00:10:15,120
significant research and anecdotal

285
00:10:18,550 --> 00:10:17,279
evidence and the fact that the air force

286
00:10:20,710 --> 00:10:18,560
admitted it and when you put all that

287
00:10:21,910 --> 00:10:20,720
together did roswell happen

288
00:10:25,190 --> 00:10:21,920
i believe it

289
00:10:26,790 --> 00:10:25,200
oh yeah 100 percent yeah yeah me too not

290
00:10:29,110 --> 00:10:26,800
necessarily in the exact way that's

291
00:10:30,550 --> 00:10:29,120
portrayed by most people but that's

292
00:10:33,030 --> 00:10:30,560
that's you know that's just

293
00:10:34,230 --> 00:10:33,040
neither here i think people like richard

294
00:10:35,670 --> 00:10:34,240
you know should

295
00:10:37,590 --> 00:10:35,680
should be there we should have people

296
00:10:38,949 --> 00:10:37,600
like like we should have skeptics in

297
00:10:40,870 --> 00:10:38,959
this people

298
00:10:42,150 --> 00:10:40,880
everybody that we know and love in that

299
00:10:43,750 --> 00:10:42,160
kind of side

300
00:10:45,430 --> 00:10:43,760
with people which i'm going to mention

301
00:10:47,910 --> 00:10:45,440
names but we also need people like

302
00:10:49,670 --> 00:10:47,920
richard to be part of the conversation

303
00:10:51,750 --> 00:10:49,680
so we can't just lock them away and

304
00:10:53,590 --> 00:10:51,760
throw away the key because they did

305
00:10:55,430 --> 00:10:53,600
something you know questionable back in

306
00:10:57,030 --> 00:10:55,440
the day they as you say they're part of

307
00:10:58,870 --> 00:10:57,040
the ufo legend

308
00:11:00,949 --> 00:10:58,880
if nothing else so they have an

309
00:11:02,710 --> 00:11:00,959
important they have an important

310
00:11:04,389 --> 00:11:02,720
important story to tell and that you

311
00:11:06,389 --> 00:11:04,399
take out of what you what you want and

312
00:11:07,750 --> 00:11:06,399
what you need and what you think is

313
00:11:09,829 --> 00:11:07,760
truthful

314
00:11:12,470 --> 00:11:09,839
and and nathan the thing is is we have a

315
00:11:15,030 --> 00:11:12,480
very limited amount of people that are

316
00:11:17,910 --> 00:11:15,040
out in the public space that no

317
00:11:19,430 --> 00:11:17,920
sure yeah uh i i don't i'm not even sure

318
00:11:21,590 --> 00:11:19,440
graham probably knows how many we have

319
00:11:22,790 --> 00:11:21,600
that are out in that space i don't know

320
00:11:24,870 --> 00:11:22,800
but uh

321
00:11:26,550 --> 00:11:24,880
but rick rick is one of them that's

322
00:11:28,630 --> 00:11:26,560
actually been briefed into a program so

323
00:11:30,069 --> 00:11:28,640
thank god we have a few people that are

324
00:11:31,670 --> 00:11:30,079
willing to come out that are like okay

325
00:11:34,230 --> 00:11:31,680
what are you going to do to me

326
00:11:36,389 --> 00:11:34,240
you know at this point and i'm sure that

327
00:11:38,710 --> 00:11:36,399
he's got his life secured in a way that

328
00:11:40,230 --> 00:11:38,720
if something were to happen to him it

329
00:11:43,430 --> 00:11:40,240
would not be

330
00:11:44,949 --> 00:11:43,440
it couldn't be obfuscated not in 2021

331
00:11:47,509 --> 00:11:44,959
yeah oh yeah i mean the last thing that

332
00:11:50,230 --> 00:11:47,519
i'll say about this and before we uh

333
00:11:51,990 --> 00:11:50,240
change to change topics here is that uh

334
00:11:53,670 --> 00:11:52,000
i think

335
00:11:56,629 --> 00:11:53,680
you know rick doty

336
00:11:59,430 --> 00:11:56,639
is a product of american culture you

337
00:12:00,790 --> 00:11:59,440
know like we we can't disassociate rick

338
00:12:03,670 --> 00:12:00,800
dodie from

339
00:12:05,590 --> 00:12:03,680
the state that he served and so while we

340
00:12:08,310 --> 00:12:05,600
can take issue with the things that our

341
00:12:11,110 --> 00:12:08,320
states do in our name uh we still must

342
00:12:13,269 --> 00:12:11,120
recognize that we whether we like it or

343
00:12:15,750 --> 00:12:13,279
not are citizens

344
00:12:17,590 --> 00:12:15,760
in these state powers who have to do

345
00:12:19,750 --> 00:12:17,600
things that they think are in the

346
00:12:22,230 --> 00:12:19,760
interest of not only state power but

347
00:12:23,829 --> 00:12:22,240
also the protection of their citizens

348
00:12:25,509 --> 00:12:23,839
and we can we can go back and we can you

349
00:12:27,670 --> 00:12:25,519
know hindsight is always going to be 20

350
00:12:29,110 --> 00:12:27,680
20. we can go back and and adjudicate

351
00:12:30,310 --> 00:12:29,120
what they did in the past and say you

352
00:12:31,590 --> 00:12:30,320
know what we i wouldn't have done it

353
00:12:33,430 --> 00:12:31,600
that way and that that wasn't the right

354
00:12:34,949 --> 00:12:33,440
thing to do but at the time given the

355
00:12:36,949 --> 00:12:34,959
mixture of circumstances and everything

356
00:12:38,470 --> 00:12:36,959
that was going on you know people had to

357
00:12:40,389 --> 00:12:38,480
make a decision that to make a judgment

358
00:12:42,069 --> 00:12:40,399
call on how to do how to move forward

359
00:12:43,590 --> 00:12:42,079
and you know i don't know if i like the

360
00:12:45,190 --> 00:12:43,600
call that they made but it is what they

361
00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:45,200
did and now we're gonna we're kind of

362
00:12:48,949 --> 00:12:47,120
all dealing with the downstream

363
00:12:50,629 --> 00:12:48,959
consequences of that and that's always

364
00:12:52,310 --> 00:12:50,639
going to be true generations from now

365
00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:52,320
we'll look back at this time and they'll

366
00:12:55,590 --> 00:12:54,160
look at what we're doing and saying you

367
00:12:56,629 --> 00:12:55,600
know i wouldn't have done that i can't

368
00:12:58,310 --> 00:12:56,639
believe that they did that you know how

369
00:13:00,710 --> 00:12:58,320
did they allow that to happen you know

370
00:13:02,470 --> 00:13:00,720
it we it we're buried you know in the

371
00:13:03,590 --> 00:13:02,480
time that we find ourselves and that's

372
00:13:05,590 --> 00:13:03,600
just the way that that's just

373
00:13:07,350 --> 00:13:05,600
unfortunately the way that life is

374
00:13:09,430 --> 00:13:07,360
we don't know how many other richard

375
00:13:12,550 --> 00:13:09,440
dodies are out there either do we

376
00:13:14,150 --> 00:13:12,560
exactly exactly yeah i mean

377
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:14,160
you know graham i know you're not like a

378
00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:17,440
u.s government expert but uh i i

379
00:13:20,949 --> 00:13:18,720
basically

380
00:13:24,470 --> 00:13:20,959
the last question i asked him which i

381
00:13:26,230 --> 00:13:24,480
now kind of regret was asking about mj12

382
00:13:28,150 --> 00:13:26,240
in fact nathan and i had a conversation

383
00:13:30,470 --> 00:13:28,160
yesterday about sometimes things are

384
00:13:32,310 --> 00:13:30,480
better left unsaid um that made him

385
00:13:33,990 --> 00:13:32,320
uncomfortable um

386
00:13:36,230 --> 00:13:34,000
and that was the only time in the in the

387
00:13:39,110 --> 00:13:36,240
entire interview that he was out of

388
00:13:41,269 --> 00:13:39,120
comfort which you can read into that i

389
00:13:43,670 --> 00:13:41,279
know what i read into it but what's your

390
00:13:46,150 --> 00:13:43,680
thought about that construct of being

391
00:13:47,110 --> 00:13:46,160
able to deprive people with the need to

392
00:13:49,189 --> 00:13:47,120
know

393
00:13:50,949 --> 00:13:49,199
information that

394
00:13:52,710 --> 00:13:50,959
somebody decided

395
00:13:55,269 --> 00:13:52,720
shouldn't be known by people that have a

396
00:13:57,189 --> 00:13:55,279
need to know and meet that criteria of

397
00:13:58,710 --> 00:13:57,199
of that especially compartmentalized

398
00:14:03,350 --> 00:13:58,720
information

399
00:14:05,590 --> 00:14:03,360
disseminated to the people who need to

400
00:14:07,750 --> 00:14:05,600
know it but then the people who don't

401
00:14:09,910 --> 00:14:07,760
they have this kind of cloak of secrecy

402
00:14:11,670 --> 00:14:09,920
around it but which has been penetrated

403
00:14:13,269 --> 00:14:11,680
quite a few times over the over the

404
00:14:15,269 --> 00:14:13,279
course of history now if you're talking

405
00:14:17,030 --> 00:14:15,279
about mj12

406
00:14:19,509 --> 00:14:17,040
that's a different kettle of fish

407
00:14:20,710 --> 00:14:19,519
entirely because its own provenance is

408
00:14:23,509 --> 00:14:20,720
questionable

409
00:14:26,470 --> 00:14:23,519
the delivery method that it got into

410
00:14:29,110 --> 00:14:26,480
ufologist hand again is questionable

411
00:14:31,350 --> 00:14:29,120
talking about photocopied documents in

412
00:14:32,550 --> 00:14:31,360
brown paper envelopes shoved under hotel

413
00:14:34,790 --> 00:14:32,560
room doors

414
00:14:36,870 --> 00:14:34,800
or pebbles or people's

415
00:14:38,550 --> 00:14:36,880
houses

416
00:14:40,389 --> 00:14:38,560
wasn't it yeah so you've got this kind

417
00:14:42,069 --> 00:14:40,399
of weird way that it was

418
00:14:43,829 --> 00:14:42,079
you know they got it out there if that's

419
00:14:45,990 --> 00:14:43,839
what they did and it's all setting up

420
00:14:47,110 --> 00:14:46,000
maybe just to set people up for a fall

421
00:14:48,389 --> 00:14:47,120
that's right and i know people like

422
00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:48,399
kevin randle have done you know

423
00:14:52,470 --> 00:14:50,800
significant amounts of work in testing

424
00:14:55,110 --> 00:14:52,480
you know the kind of what what the the

425
00:14:56,629 --> 00:14:55,120
layout and the text and the signatures

426
00:14:59,030 --> 00:14:56,639
and everything else to do with it i'm

427
00:15:00,870 --> 00:14:59,040
not an mj12 expert but for what i read

428
00:15:03,269 --> 00:15:00,880
from him and other people

429
00:15:04,949 --> 00:15:03,279
it's again one of those things that you

430
00:15:06,310 --> 00:15:04,959
know it's been put out there basically

431
00:15:08,550 --> 00:15:06,320
just to send people off you know in the

432
00:15:10,230 --> 00:15:08,560
wrong in the wrong direction yeah for a

433
00:15:12,150 --> 00:15:10,240
lot of things and the best way of

434
00:15:13,590 --> 00:15:12,160
actually hiding kind of truths is to

435
00:15:15,189 --> 00:15:13,600
hide them between you know sorry as to

436
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:15,199
how to have lies it's tied in between

437
00:15:19,670 --> 00:15:17,760
truths so therefore there'll be quite a

438
00:15:21,430 --> 00:15:19,680
lot in there which is truthful but that

439
00:15:23,189 --> 00:15:21,440
won't be the important stuff you know

440
00:15:25,509 --> 00:15:23,199
it'll be the you're all the kind of way

441
00:15:27,829 --> 00:15:25,519
out there stuff is other lies and it'll

442
00:15:30,710 --> 00:15:27,839
be possibly done for a reason i'm i'm

443
00:15:32,949 --> 00:15:30,720
really when i first heard about m2 mj 12

444
00:15:34,230 --> 00:15:32,959
back in the 90's in the early 90s it was

445
00:15:35,509 --> 00:15:34,240
one of those things that was like wow

446
00:15:37,350 --> 00:15:35,519
you know because i was a bit of a sponge

447
00:15:39,269 --> 00:15:37,360
back then and critical thinking when i

448
00:15:41,590 --> 00:15:39,279
was younger yeah i still had to develop

449
00:15:43,269 --> 00:15:41,600
that um but

450
00:15:44,629 --> 00:15:43,279
that that still kind of thought this is

451
00:15:46,470 --> 00:15:44,639
too good to be true

452
00:15:48,230 --> 00:15:46,480
and i still think that now

453
00:15:50,389 --> 00:15:48,240
um and i've never come across anything

454
00:15:51,990 --> 00:15:50,399
that's sort of like maybe go no actually

455
00:15:54,710 --> 00:15:52,000
there is something to this and it's

456
00:15:57,189 --> 00:15:54,720
probably real um i i just think it was

457
00:15:58,790 --> 00:15:57,199
very convenient at the time because

458
00:16:00,389 --> 00:15:58,800
ufology was on a bit of a downward

459
00:16:02,710 --> 00:16:00,399
spiral at that time and this kind of

460
00:16:07,030 --> 00:16:02,720
perched up not as much as maybe as the

461
00:16:09,350 --> 00:16:07,040
the as the 2000 or the 24 2004 nimitz

462
00:16:10,949 --> 00:16:09,360
counters when they came out in 2017. but

463
00:16:12,069 --> 00:16:10,959
at the time it was quite a big thing i

464
00:16:13,590 --> 00:16:12,079
mean we didn't have the internet we

465
00:16:15,430 --> 00:16:13,600
didn't have social media back then but

466
00:16:17,189 --> 00:16:15,440
for books and magazines it was a huge

467
00:16:19,189 --> 00:16:17,199
thing that's right um

468
00:16:21,590 --> 00:16:19,199
but i just wonder whether it came out

469
00:16:24,150 --> 00:16:21,600
because it was a need to feed you know

470
00:16:25,590 --> 00:16:24,160
this kind of sort of ufology with

471
00:16:27,670 --> 00:16:25,600
something just to throw them off the

472
00:16:29,670 --> 00:16:27,680
call because maybe people were getting

473
00:16:30,949 --> 00:16:29,680
too close to the truth and here oh yeah

474
00:16:32,389 --> 00:16:30,959
you know here's something that sends you

475
00:16:34,150 --> 00:16:32,399
off in a completely different direction

476
00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:34,160
so we'll hide this even further that you

477
00:16:38,310 --> 00:16:36,240
actually got quite close to maybe

478
00:16:39,590 --> 00:16:38,320
something like that well i don't know

479
00:16:41,269 --> 00:16:39,600
i'm just you know talking off the top of

480
00:16:43,829 --> 00:16:41,279
my head here but i still don't

481
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:43,839
i can't i don't find nj 12 credible

482
00:16:47,350 --> 00:16:45,600
enough to go yeah

483
00:16:50,550 --> 00:16:47,360
definitely something to that right let

484
00:16:52,710 --> 00:16:50,560
me let me disassociate the name um of of

485
00:16:54,870 --> 00:16:52,720
the program and and look at it like this

486
00:16:57,350 --> 00:16:54,880
one of the things that that i used to do

487
00:16:58,710 --> 00:16:57,360
like when i was in town twos is like the

488
00:17:01,030 --> 00:16:58,720
flight doctor would come around and

489
00:17:03,189 --> 00:17:01,040
they'd say or some dv would come around

490
00:17:05,510 --> 00:17:03,199
they'd say hey the person wants to

491
00:17:07,909 --> 00:17:05,520
understand how this works and people

492
00:17:10,470 --> 00:17:07,919
would say hey dj would you explain to me

493
00:17:12,069 --> 00:17:10,480
how it works okay you give me 120

494
00:17:14,630 --> 00:17:12,079
seconds we're going to go up to the nose

495
00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:14,640
of the aircraft and by the time 120

496
00:17:19,350 --> 00:17:16,720
seconds is elapsed i'm going to have you

497
00:17:21,829 --> 00:17:19,360
understand how the tfta radar works and

498
00:17:23,829 --> 00:17:21,839
i go ready go and i and i explain to him

499
00:17:25,990 --> 00:17:23,839
how tfta radar works i'm not gonna do

500
00:17:28,069 --> 00:17:26,000
that here but i like to break things

501
00:17:30,070 --> 00:17:28,079
down to their simplest form because

502
00:17:31,750 --> 00:17:30,080
quite frankly i'm a special ed student

503
00:17:33,350 --> 00:17:31,760
i'm not you know i didn't grow up that

504
00:17:35,669 --> 00:17:33,360
bright uh

505
00:17:38,230 --> 00:17:35,679
but uh and i mean that

506
00:17:40,630 --> 00:17:38,240
but here's what i want to explain to you

507
00:17:42,870 --> 00:17:40,640
if you have to try to hide information

508
00:17:44,150 --> 00:17:42,880
that people have a need to know how do

509
00:17:45,430 --> 00:17:44,160
you do that

510
00:17:47,029 --> 00:17:45,440
because

511
00:17:48,549 --> 00:17:47,039
lou should have known

512
00:17:51,510 --> 00:17:48,559
lou should have been briefed on every

513
00:17:53,669 --> 00:17:51,520
single thing that we had related to ufos

514
00:17:55,430 --> 00:17:53,679
not just oh i went to bigelow lab and

515
00:17:57,430 --> 00:17:55,440
they showed me a piece of material but

516
00:17:58,630 --> 00:17:57,440
anything and everything that we have he

517
00:18:01,990 --> 00:17:58,640
should have known as part of this

518
00:18:03,990 --> 00:18:02,000
program the sec deaf has a need to know

519
00:18:05,669 --> 00:18:04,000
the service the joint chiefs of staff

520
00:18:07,909 --> 00:18:05,679
have a need to know

521
00:18:10,310 --> 00:18:07,919
um the directors of the different what

522
00:18:11,909 --> 00:18:10,320
there's 18 intelligence agencies all

523
00:18:13,270 --> 00:18:11,919
have a need and some may know for all i

524
00:18:15,270 --> 00:18:13,280
know but

525
00:18:17,190 --> 00:18:15,280
you know lou indicates you know kind of

526
00:18:19,270 --> 00:18:17,200
like what he's heard and then supposedly

527
00:18:21,110 --> 00:18:19,280
two guys came in his office that didn't

528
00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:21,120
present credentials and opened a folder

529
00:18:24,390 --> 00:18:22,480
and then closed it and then left and

530
00:18:25,270 --> 00:18:24,400
showed him something and then left

531
00:18:27,590 --> 00:18:25,280
um

532
00:18:30,230 --> 00:18:27,600
so the way that i would do that is i

533
00:18:31,990 --> 00:18:30,240
would create a construct whereby a

534
00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:32,000
certain group of people

535
00:18:35,350 --> 00:18:34,080
would know and compartmentalize this

536
00:18:36,230 --> 00:18:35,360
information

537
00:18:38,789 --> 00:18:36,240
and

538
00:18:40,150 --> 00:18:38,799
that way it would only this group of

539
00:18:42,390 --> 00:18:40,160
people would know whatever you want to

540
00:18:45,830 --> 00:18:42,400
call that group and then people that do

541
00:18:47,750 --> 00:18:45,840
have a need to know won't know

542
00:18:50,230 --> 00:18:47,760
that's where there's efficacy i don't

543
00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:50,240
know if it's called maryjane12 i don't

544
00:18:54,230 --> 00:18:51,760
know what the hell it's called or care

545
00:18:55,029 --> 00:18:54,240
what it's called but that's how you

546
00:18:57,029 --> 00:18:55,039
would

547
00:19:00,789 --> 00:18:57,039
keep things locked away in different

548
00:19:02,630 --> 00:19:00,799
facilities around the country without

549
00:19:04,070 --> 00:19:02,640
for example someone on the intelligence

550
00:19:06,230 --> 00:19:04,080
committee who would ever need to know

551
00:19:08,310 --> 00:19:06,240
the senate intel committee what that

552
00:19:09,750 --> 00:19:08,320
what those materials are and what kind

553
00:19:11,990 --> 00:19:09,760
of funding they're getting and you heard

554
00:19:14,789 --> 00:19:12,000
christopher merlin say there's stuff out

555
00:19:17,190 --> 00:19:14,799
there and we don't know where it is

556
00:19:19,350 --> 00:19:17,200
christopher mellon the under secretary

557
00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:19,360
of defense for intelligence so to me

558
00:19:23,510 --> 00:19:22,080
that says somebody created something i

559
00:19:26,549 --> 00:19:23,520
don't know how many people it could have

560
00:19:29,270 --> 00:19:26,559
been 27 people i have no idea but

561
00:19:32,390 --> 00:19:29,280
somebody created a construct whereby you

562
00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:32,400
could compartmentalize a program that

563
00:19:37,110 --> 00:19:34,640
everything could be under that program

564
00:19:39,029 --> 00:19:37,120
and then everyone who had a need to know

565
00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:39,039
wouldn't have the ability to know like

566
00:19:42,630 --> 00:19:40,240
the president

567
00:19:45,669 --> 00:19:42,640
the original the oca the original

568
00:19:47,750 --> 00:19:45,679
classification authority because

569
00:19:49,190 --> 00:19:47,760
what can the original classification

570
00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:49,200
authority do if he learns that

571
00:19:53,909 --> 00:19:51,600
information guys

572
00:19:55,669 --> 00:19:53,919
they can declassify it thank you he can

573
00:19:58,230 --> 00:19:55,679
declassify it because he can

574
00:20:00,310 --> 00:19:58,240
declassified any piece of information

575
00:20:01,909 --> 00:20:00,320
that he gets that he wants

576
00:20:03,510 --> 00:20:01,919
so he's the last person that would have

577
00:20:05,510 --> 00:20:03,520
knowing anything about the program

578
00:20:06,470 --> 00:20:05,520
because he has that power

579
00:20:11,270 --> 00:20:06,480
it's

580
00:20:13,029 --> 00:20:11,280
of subterfuge and things locked away in

581
00:20:14,950 --> 00:20:13,039
these what special access programs and

582
00:20:17,350 --> 00:20:14,960
the um and the usaps as well as can't

583
00:20:19,350 --> 00:20:17,360
remember the use of knowledge sorry so

584
00:20:21,110 --> 00:20:19,360
and they're great because apparently in

585
00:20:23,430 --> 00:20:21,120
terms of like disclosure because they're

586
00:20:24,950 --> 00:20:23,440
free from uh fire aren't they

587
00:20:27,110 --> 00:20:24,960
they don't have to and submit to that

588
00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:27,120
process so they're the perfect place to

589
00:20:31,350 --> 00:20:29,280
hide things away and have people signed

590
00:20:33,190 --> 00:20:31,360
into those programs where there's no

591
00:20:34,789 --> 00:20:33,200
public acknowledgement of what they do

592
00:20:36,470 --> 00:20:34,799
and that could be something that's gone

593
00:20:37,510 --> 00:20:36,480
on i don't know i'm not entirely sure

594
00:20:39,270 --> 00:20:37,520
when special

595
00:20:41,510 --> 00:20:39,280
access programs were invented or when

596
00:20:43,909 --> 00:20:41,520
they started but that must be something

597
00:20:45,029 --> 00:20:43,919
that's been ongoing for you know quite a

598
00:20:47,510 --> 00:20:45,039
long time

599
00:20:50,549 --> 00:20:47,520
um and that'll be where all these things

600
00:20:52,549 --> 00:20:50,559
hide and reside and the people who as

601
00:20:53,909 --> 00:20:52,559
you say need to have a need to know

602
00:20:56,110 --> 00:20:53,919
that's where they read into and say

603
00:20:57,909 --> 00:20:56,120
right this is what you have but

604
00:20:59,350 --> 00:20:57,919
compartmentalized information i mean

605
00:21:01,190 --> 00:20:59,360
that goes back to what the manhattan

606
00:21:03,029 --> 00:21:01,200
project isn't it so that was a way where

607
00:21:04,549 --> 00:21:03,039
they had you know people didn't know

608
00:21:06,149 --> 00:21:04,559
what other people were working on even

609
00:21:07,909 --> 00:21:06,159
though we're working on on overall the

610
00:21:09,590 --> 00:21:07,919
same thing and of course you have you

611
00:21:11,270 --> 00:21:09,600
know there'll be other projects like

612
00:21:13,350 --> 00:21:11,280
that throughout history where people

613
00:21:14,950 --> 00:21:13,360
were working on little bits of a set of

614
00:21:16,630 --> 00:21:14,960
an overall problem

615
00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:16,640
because that's the best way to stop

616
00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:18,000
everybody from knowing actually what's

617
00:21:21,990 --> 00:21:19,360
happening and you have just have a few

618
00:21:24,149 --> 00:21:22,000
people who who actually know the gist of

619
00:21:25,750 --> 00:21:24,159
it um so they'll probably learn from all

620
00:21:27,510 --> 00:21:25,760
the stuff back in the war in terms of

621
00:21:29,190 --> 00:21:27,520
the manhattan project how to set up

622
00:21:30,470 --> 00:21:29,200
something really secret and keep

623
00:21:32,630 --> 00:21:30,480
everybody from knowing what everybody

624
00:21:34,710 --> 00:21:32,640
else was doing and the general public

625
00:21:36,549 --> 00:21:34,720
from knowing at all what was happening

626
00:21:38,950 --> 00:21:36,559
yeah that's it and then you put out what

627
00:21:40,789 --> 00:21:38,960
you want you chaff what you want you

628
00:21:43,029 --> 00:21:40,799
could put out a whole disinformation

629
00:21:44,950 --> 00:21:43,039
thing that's called mj12 that maybe

630
00:21:46,310 --> 00:21:44,960
there's as i said there could be 27

631
00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:46,320
people there could be five people who

632
00:21:51,270 --> 00:21:48,480
knows i have no idea i'm just saying

633
00:21:53,990 --> 00:21:51,280
that you would have to have a construct

634
00:21:56,830 --> 00:21:54,000
like that to opt to obscure that

635
00:21:59,830 --> 00:21:56,840
information from people who have a

636
00:22:02,310 --> 00:21:59,840
legitimate need to know and i if you

637
00:22:04,230 --> 00:22:02,320
want me to answer that i will get back

638
00:22:07,029 --> 00:22:04,240
with you personally graham and i'll find

639
00:22:09,510 --> 00:22:07,039
out uh from my intel friends when uh

640
00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:09,520
saps were created and and and all that i

641
00:22:14,070 --> 00:22:11,600
just i don't know that answer because i

642
00:22:16,870 --> 00:22:14,080
was too focused on my tasks

643
00:22:18,630 --> 00:22:16,880
when i was in the game so

644
00:22:19,909 --> 00:22:18,640
nice well i see we have a special guest

645
00:22:21,990 --> 00:22:19,919
in the background should we should we

646
00:22:23,909 --> 00:22:22,000
bring bring this person on bring him on

647
00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:23,919
and say something to graham rendell here

648
00:22:28,870 --> 00:22:25,360
we go

649
00:22:30,870 --> 00:22:28,880
hello hey hey graham hey hi chris hey

650
00:22:31,990 --> 00:22:30,880
graham how's it going hello i'm fine

651
00:22:33,430 --> 00:22:32,000
thank you

652
00:22:35,590 --> 00:22:33,440
we spoke on the phone a few weeks ago

653
00:22:38,070 --> 00:22:35,600
didn't we yeah yeah thanks for help and

654
00:22:39,750 --> 00:22:38,080
uh it's good to see you in in person see

655
00:22:41,350 --> 00:22:39,760
yeah you too thank you happy beer i was

656
00:22:43,430 --> 00:22:41,360
just trying i was traveling i'm in uh

657
00:22:45,669 --> 00:22:43,440
colorado springs actually

658
00:22:47,830 --> 00:22:45,679
yeah dj is like hey can you can you come

659
00:22:50,630 --> 00:22:47,840
on this podcast i was in bed i was

660
00:22:57,830 --> 00:22:50,640
totally i was still asleep yeah uh jet

661
00:23:01,909 --> 00:22:59,510
are you going to speak at the academy

662
00:23:04,230 --> 00:23:01,919
what are you doing no not at all it's uh

663
00:23:05,830 --> 00:23:04,240
it's a reunion it was my 20-year reunion

664
00:23:07,350 --> 00:23:05,840
well it was actually uh last year but it

665
00:23:09,029 --> 00:23:07,360
got cancelled

666
00:23:10,470 --> 00:23:09,039
so there was two classes here it was fun

667
00:23:12,549 --> 00:23:10,480
to come back i hadn't been back and

668
00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:12,559
since i got married here actually

669
00:23:17,190 --> 00:23:14,559
um so it's been nice you got married in

670
00:23:19,430 --> 00:23:17,200
the chapel we did

671
00:23:23,029 --> 00:23:21,029
yeah the swords you know they hold the

672
00:23:25,190 --> 00:23:23,039
swords up and you go underneath and then

673
00:23:27,270 --> 00:23:25,200
the last guy slaps your wife's butt with

674
00:23:28,470 --> 00:23:27,280
a sword

675
00:23:31,830 --> 00:23:28,480
that's great there's no way that's going

676
00:23:36,310 --> 00:23:33,669
that tradition yep they've done away

677
00:23:38,789 --> 00:23:36,320
with that that is awesome man oh that's

678
00:23:40,950 --> 00:23:38,799
great to be here thank you um so

679
00:23:42,549 --> 00:23:40,960
nathan's gonna dive in christy do you

680
00:23:44,149 --> 00:23:42,559
have a question you just kind of want to

681
00:23:45,669 --> 00:23:44,159
be part of i was just watching catching

682
00:23:48,549 --> 00:23:45,679
up um i haven't read your book graham

683
00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:48,559
i'm excited to read it actually um

684
00:23:52,630 --> 00:23:50,640
my question was do you think

685
00:23:54,070 --> 00:23:52,640
you know kind of on that same

686
00:23:54,870 --> 00:23:54,080
that same strain you were just talking

687
00:23:57,110 --> 00:23:54,880
about

688
00:23:59,190 --> 00:23:57,120
uh do you think that these are

689
00:24:00,549 --> 00:23:59,200
uh human systems you know has it could

690
00:24:02,149 --> 00:24:00,559
it be possible that some of this

691
00:24:03,750 --> 00:24:02,159
technology has been

692
00:24:05,990 --> 00:24:03,760
you know squirreled away and then

693
00:24:08,230 --> 00:24:06,000
actually stolen if you will to the

694
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:08,240
public sector you know private

695
00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:09,360
essentially

696
00:24:13,269 --> 00:24:11,440
uh through some you know i guess rogue

697
00:24:16,149 --> 00:24:13,279
bands is is that what you're kind of

698
00:24:18,630 --> 00:24:16,159
thinking what do you think is uh is all

699
00:24:20,549 --> 00:24:18,640
all these sightings that we're seeing

700
00:24:21,669 --> 00:24:20,559
in terms of some of the the recent

701
00:24:23,830 --> 00:24:21,679
things then

702
00:24:25,669 --> 00:24:23,840
the the sort of distinction between what

703
00:24:26,950 --> 00:24:25,679
you know it can be man-made and what

704
00:24:28,149 --> 00:24:26,960
people are seeing that's getting quite

705
00:24:29,990 --> 00:24:28,159
blurred now

706
00:24:31,590 --> 00:24:30,000
so the technology in terms of drones and

707
00:24:33,430 --> 00:24:31,600
you know and hypersonic vehicles and all

708
00:24:35,029 --> 00:24:33,440
the rest of it that's closing the gap

709
00:24:36,470 --> 00:24:35,039
between what people are seeing and

710
00:24:39,269 --> 00:24:36,480
traditionally have seen throughout the

711
00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:39,279
decades and what we're you know capable

712
00:24:43,190 --> 00:24:41,440
of actually putting together now that

713
00:24:45,110 --> 00:24:43,200
can't be true however for back in the

714
00:24:46,789 --> 00:24:45,120
war which is what i've written about and

715
00:24:48,870 --> 00:24:46,799
for the reasons i go into the book

716
00:24:50,549 --> 00:24:48,880
because if you look at the history of

717
00:24:52,870 --> 00:24:50,559
you know german sticker weapons and what

718
00:24:54,470 --> 00:24:52,880
was built in terms of jet aircraft and

719
00:24:56,070 --> 00:24:54,480
rocket-powered aircraft and then the

720
00:24:58,470 --> 00:24:56,080
types of missiles and other things that

721
00:25:00,310 --> 00:24:58,480
they were coming up with there's no way

722
00:25:02,390 --> 00:25:00,320
that that that technology could have

723
00:25:04,549 --> 00:25:02,400
accounted for the type of sightings that

724
00:25:08,870 --> 00:25:04,559
were being reported not just on a on an

725
00:25:11,350 --> 00:25:08,880
occasional basis but quite quite often

726
00:25:13,830 --> 00:25:11,360
and and could you tell chris uh i i

727
00:25:15,750 --> 00:25:13,840
listened to some of your interviews um

728
00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:15,760
could you tell them about what you know

729
00:25:19,510 --> 00:25:17,760
some of the compelling ones where uh

730
00:25:22,149 --> 00:25:19,520
basically so we're going into graham's

731
00:25:24,710 --> 00:25:22,159
book and and nathan it's it's called uh

732
00:25:25,909 --> 00:25:24,720
say what it is again ufos before roswell

733
00:25:27,190 --> 00:25:25,919
there's what it is

734
00:25:29,350 --> 00:25:27,200
you can see the foo fighters on the

735
00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:29,360
cover it's a you know it's amazing you

736
00:25:33,669 --> 00:25:31,760
did a great job on your cover

737
00:25:34,950 --> 00:25:33,679
the cover there so that's dan zetastrom

738
00:25:36,710 --> 00:25:34,960
and uh

739
00:25:39,590 --> 00:25:36,720
yeah and i'll talk about this one

740
00:25:41,269 --> 00:25:39,600
because this is march 1942. so

741
00:25:42,630 --> 00:25:41,279
what was the accepted wisdom about the

742
00:25:45,350 --> 00:25:42,640
start of the foo fighters was november

743
00:25:46,789 --> 00:25:45,360
1944 and for about 50 years people

744
00:25:48,950 --> 00:25:46,799
people thought that's when it started

745
00:25:50,950 --> 00:25:48,960
but actually it started a lot earlier um

746
00:25:52,950 --> 00:25:50,960
so if you go to the rf records and and

747
00:25:55,029 --> 00:25:52,960
and sightings you'll find that you can

748
00:25:57,350 --> 00:25:55,039
push that date much further back so this

749
00:25:59,190 --> 00:25:57,360
is march 1942. it's a month after the

750
00:26:02,470 --> 00:25:59,200
so-called battle of los angeles where

751
00:26:04,950 --> 00:26:02,480
that mystery object you know had 1400 um

752
00:26:07,029 --> 00:26:04,960
rounds of anti-aircraft fire um you know

753
00:26:09,110 --> 00:26:07,039
aimed at it and fired at it and nothing

754
00:26:11,029 --> 00:26:09,120
happened and it flew all the way down

755
00:26:13,430 --> 00:26:11,039
past long beach and and further south

756
00:26:15,590 --> 00:26:13,440
and then came back again up the coast

757
00:26:17,909 --> 00:26:15,600
and say if that had been a balloon it

758
00:26:18,870 --> 00:26:17,919
would have been shredded by that much uh

759
00:26:20,549 --> 00:26:18,880
aaa

760
00:26:22,310 --> 00:26:20,559
um they didn't send aircraft up after it

761
00:26:23,669 --> 00:26:22,320
for some strange reason uh but again it

762
00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:23,679
was really early in the war for the

763
00:26:27,110 --> 00:26:25,760
american for the local air defenses and

764
00:26:28,950 --> 00:26:27,120
i don't think that

765
00:26:30,549 --> 00:26:28,960
really got their act together at that

766
00:26:31,590 --> 00:26:30,559
stage but there were plenty of war

767
00:26:33,669 --> 00:26:31,600
nerves

768
00:26:36,630 --> 00:26:33,679
this is a month afterwards and this is a

769
00:26:38,950 --> 00:26:36,640
an raf wellington bomber which is flying

770
00:26:40,549 --> 00:26:38,960
to essen in the rura in germany and they

771
00:26:42,070 --> 00:26:40,559
just dropped the bombs on the target and

772
00:26:43,909 --> 00:26:42,080
they're turning for home and they're

773
00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:43,919
just getting out of the target area and

774
00:26:46,710 --> 00:26:45,200
this is actually a polish crude

775
00:26:48,710 --> 00:26:46,720
wellington because there were various

776
00:26:50,390 --> 00:26:48,720
polish volunteer squadrons in the raf it

777
00:26:51,350 --> 00:26:50,400
was 301 squadron

778
00:26:53,510 --> 00:26:51,360
and

779
00:26:56,549 --> 00:26:53,520
the the rear gunner noticed some a

780
00:26:58,070 --> 00:26:56,559
copper-coloured disc shape light coming

781
00:26:59,750 --> 00:26:58,080
up behind them

782
00:27:01,110 --> 00:26:59,760
he shouted a warning to the pilot

783
00:27:03,110 --> 00:27:01,120
through the intercom

784
00:27:05,830 --> 00:27:03,120
and the pilot said to him looking if it

785
00:27:07,190 --> 00:27:05,840
gets you know too close open fire in it

786
00:27:09,430 --> 00:27:07,200
because everybody just thought it was a

787
00:27:11,110 --> 00:27:09,440
night fight it was a luffa night fighter

788
00:27:14,310 --> 00:27:11,120
what else would it be

789
00:27:15,669 --> 00:27:14,320
things like flying saucers ufos all that

790
00:27:17,510 --> 00:27:15,679
kind of thing those words weren't in

791
00:27:19,029 --> 00:27:17,520
people's lexicons they weren't even on

792
00:27:22,149 --> 00:27:19,039
their radar that was for five years in

793
00:27:24,630 --> 00:27:22,159
the future so the gunner julie opened

794
00:27:26,389 --> 00:27:24,640
fire with you know with with the the

795
00:27:28,549 --> 00:27:26,399
bullets from he's three or three uh

796
00:27:29,990 --> 00:27:28,559
point three or three inch machine guns

797
00:27:31,990 --> 00:27:30,000
in the in east um

798
00:27:34,470 --> 00:27:32,000
in his tail turrets and you can see the

799
00:27:36,870 --> 00:27:34,480
tracer um going out at this this light

800
00:27:38,630 --> 00:27:36,880
and the bullets and just went into it

801
00:27:41,029 --> 00:27:38,640
and nothing happened

802
00:27:43,269 --> 00:27:41,039
nothing happened it's crazy it just it

803
00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:43,279
just sat there at a set distance from

804
00:27:46,950 --> 00:27:45,520
the tail of the aircraft and then after

805
00:27:49,110 --> 00:27:46,960
a while so you squirt

806
00:27:50,549 --> 00:27:49,120
they didn't host pipe rounds of these

807
00:27:52,230 --> 00:27:50,559
things you know they conserved

808
00:27:54,549 --> 00:27:52,240
ammunition so it was short bursts of

809
00:27:56,470 --> 00:27:54,559
ammunition but every time the fire

810
00:27:57,190 --> 00:27:56,480
they're gonna fire it it just went in

811
00:27:58,630 --> 00:27:57,200
and

812
00:28:00,630 --> 00:27:58,640
well absorbed it for one of the better

813
00:28:02,870 --> 00:28:00,640
phrase because what else happened there

814
00:28:04,549 --> 00:28:02,880
was no damage the the thing didn't fall

815
00:28:06,870 --> 00:28:04,559
out the sky didn't fall away in flames

816
00:28:08,630 --> 00:28:06,880
it didn't move out the way it just took

817
00:28:10,710 --> 00:28:08,640
the punishment

818
00:28:12,950 --> 00:28:10,720
so after a little while it then moved

819
00:28:14,789 --> 00:28:12,960
around to the wing tip of the aircraft

820
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:14,799
and sat there

821
00:28:21,669 --> 00:28:19,510
[Laughter]

822
00:28:23,190 --> 00:28:21,679
now according to the pilot who was the

823
00:28:25,510 --> 00:28:23,200
person who it was the witness who

824
00:28:27,669 --> 00:28:25,520
reported the incident he then said that

825
00:28:29,510 --> 00:28:27,679
both the tail and the nose guns because

826
00:28:31,190 --> 00:28:29,520
it was they didn't have dorsal turrets

827
00:28:33,590 --> 00:28:31,200
on these aircraft it was just a front

828
00:28:35,269 --> 00:28:33,600
and a back turret they both could aim

829
00:28:37,510 --> 00:28:35,279
and fire at the object at the same time

830
00:28:39,830 --> 00:28:37,520
i did a bit of trigonometry because the

831
00:28:41,510 --> 00:28:39,840
actual capabilities of the tail turret

832
00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:41,520
so you didn't shoot your tail off meant

833
00:28:45,510 --> 00:28:43,120
that you could only fire to a certain

834
00:28:46,789 --> 00:28:45,520
degree and it was about 89 degrees so i

835
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:46,799
worked out that this thing had to be

836
00:28:51,029 --> 00:28:49,200
1500 yards off the off the port wing of

837
00:28:52,389 --> 00:28:51,039
the air of the wing of the aircraft

838
00:28:54,149 --> 00:28:52,399
before they could open fire but they

839
00:28:55,510 --> 00:28:54,159
could it was possible but it had to be a

840
00:28:57,190 --> 00:28:55,520
bit of a distance

841
00:28:58,230 --> 00:28:57,200
so i'm reading between the lines here a

842
00:29:00,230 --> 00:28:58,240
bit and it might be a little bit of

843
00:29:01,990 --> 00:29:00,240
exaggeration so at one point either they

844
00:29:03,750 --> 00:29:02,000
were firing together or at separate

845
00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:03,760
stages but at one point certainly the

846
00:29:08,950 --> 00:29:06,880
nose gun started firing at the um at

847
00:29:10,950 --> 00:29:08,960
this light and that would have been the

848
00:29:12,470 --> 00:29:10,960
navigator uh or the bomb aimer because

849
00:29:14,549 --> 00:29:12,480
they had like a dual roll uh there was

850
00:29:16,230 --> 00:29:14,559
no nose gunner as such they had to fill

851
00:29:18,389 --> 00:29:16,240
in for that that detail

852
00:29:19,750 --> 00:29:18,399
and then again it was firing and the

853
00:29:21,269 --> 00:29:19,760
light and the bullets just went into the

854
00:29:22,389 --> 00:29:21,279
light nothing happened it then moved

855
00:29:23,909 --> 00:29:22,399
around the front of the aircraft and

856
00:29:25,510 --> 00:29:23,919
maintained position

857
00:29:27,430 --> 00:29:25,520
a step distance away from the nose of

858
00:29:29,430 --> 00:29:27,440
the aircraft and just you know they were

859
00:29:31,350 --> 00:29:29,440
pacing it as it was effectively flying

860
00:29:32,630 --> 00:29:31,360
backwards or whatever because they were

861
00:29:34,389 --> 00:29:32,640
following it through the skies over

862
00:29:36,310 --> 00:29:34,399
germany and then it just shot off in the

863
00:29:38,070 --> 00:29:36,320
distance at a 45 degree angle and it was

864
00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:38,080
lost to sight within seconds

865
00:29:47,830 --> 00:29:46,310
yeah cool yeah do you know um so the

866
00:29:49,510 --> 00:29:47,840
bullets right when they see the bullets

867
00:29:50,950 --> 00:29:49,520
going off and you have the tracers you

868
00:29:52,070 --> 00:29:50,960
know you have bullet jobs so it's pretty

869
00:29:54,310 --> 00:29:52,080
obvious

870
00:29:55,990 --> 00:29:54,320
did they see him stop at the object you

871
00:29:57,350 --> 00:29:56,000
know or did they see it go through you

872
00:29:58,710 --> 00:29:57,360
know because you could if it's like a

873
00:29:59,990 --> 00:29:58,720
light or something you could see it go

874
00:30:01,990 --> 00:30:00,000
through i understand yeah i understand

875
00:30:04,470 --> 00:30:02,000
the bullet job all i can say is that the

876
00:30:05,990 --> 00:30:04,480
tracers they saw them enter the the

877
00:30:07,909 --> 00:30:06,000
lights

878
00:30:09,830 --> 00:30:07,919
i guess or maybe they there's nothing no

879
00:30:11,909 --> 00:30:09,840
nothing coming out the other side or you

880
00:30:13,430 --> 00:30:11,919
know or fragments coming off the light

881
00:30:14,870 --> 00:30:13,440
in case they hit an aircraft or anything

882
00:30:17,190 --> 00:30:14,880
like that it literally just sat there

883
00:30:18,789 --> 00:30:17,200
and took it um which to them was really

884
00:30:21,029 --> 00:30:18,799
strange you know it was terrifying

885
00:30:22,789 --> 00:30:21,039
presumably because if it was any kind of

886
00:30:24,310 --> 00:30:22,799
enemy weapon and you're firing it and

887
00:30:25,269 --> 00:30:24,320
it's invulnerable then you've got a big

888
00:30:26,789 --> 00:30:25,279
problem

889
00:30:29,029 --> 00:30:26,799
um now

890
00:30:31,029 --> 00:30:29,039
not only had that aircraft's crew seen

891
00:30:33,350 --> 00:30:31,039
this light but the wellington bomber in

892
00:30:35,029 --> 00:30:33,360
the format in the stream of aircraft

893
00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:35,039
over germany behind them

894
00:30:38,310 --> 00:30:36,640
might have been a mile or two away but

895
00:30:39,909 --> 00:30:38,320
they saw the light as well behind the

896
00:30:41,750 --> 00:30:39,919
aircraft

897
00:30:44,149 --> 00:30:41,760
when they got back to the to base for

898
00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:44,159
the briefing the pilot of the aircraft

899
00:30:48,310 --> 00:30:45,520
would have the sighting and then fired

900
00:30:50,070 --> 00:30:48,320
at the aircraft they they also talked to

901
00:30:51,350 --> 00:30:50,080
the intelligence officer for the debrief

902
00:30:52,950 --> 00:30:51,360
and he turned around and said to them

903
00:30:57,190 --> 00:30:52,960
have you been drinking because that was

904
00:30:59,750 --> 00:30:57,200
a standard response for things like this

905
00:31:02,310 --> 00:30:59,760
there was a stigma back then yes

906
00:31:04,070 --> 00:31:02,320
that stigma stays today but that was

907
00:31:06,310 --> 00:31:04,080
also this is an early version of it they

908
00:31:08,230 --> 00:31:06,320
were told either you're seeing things or

909
00:31:09,909 --> 00:31:08,240
are you um wanting to get away from

910
00:31:11,750 --> 00:31:09,919
flight duties like lackamora fiber

911
00:31:13,669 --> 00:31:11,760
because you were branded as a coward

912
00:31:14,789 --> 00:31:13,679
because the raf had this particular way

913
00:31:16,230 --> 00:31:14,799
that if you didn't want to do flight

914
00:31:17,830 --> 00:31:16,240
dude anymore because you were

915
00:31:19,590 --> 00:31:17,840
volunteering then you were effectively

916
00:31:21,190 --> 00:31:19,600
unfit for combat but you'd be reduced to

917
00:31:22,789 --> 00:31:21,200
the ranks and that's what they did and

918
00:31:24,470 --> 00:31:22,799
they put like white bands around your

919
00:31:25,830 --> 00:31:24,480
cap and things like that and you were

920
00:31:27,990 --> 00:31:25,840
basically the lowest of the low on a

921
00:31:29,990 --> 00:31:28,000
station so um you know people didn't

922
00:31:32,470 --> 00:31:30,000
want to go through that so people

923
00:31:34,070 --> 00:31:32,480
usually kept quiet about such things

924
00:31:35,909 --> 00:31:34,080
um now

925
00:31:37,990 --> 00:31:35,919
in a lot of fighter squadrons and

926
00:31:39,990 --> 00:31:38,000
particularly 173 squadron which flew

927
00:31:41,909 --> 00:31:40,000
hurricanes on the north african front

928
00:31:44,470 --> 00:31:41,919
they were flying night intruder missions

929
00:31:45,430 --> 00:31:44,480
over um various parts of the western

930
00:31:47,509 --> 00:31:45,440
desert

931
00:31:48,870 --> 00:31:47,519
now they they're pilots and this was a

932
00:31:50,950 --> 00:31:48,880
single-seat fighter for ground attack

933
00:31:52,950 --> 00:31:50,960
aircraft uh ground attack aircraft with

934
00:31:55,750 --> 00:31:52,960
armed with 20 millimeter cannon

935
00:31:57,430 --> 00:31:55,760
now their pilots had seen what they

936
00:31:59,590 --> 00:31:57,440
called the light and that was an raf

937
00:32:01,350 --> 00:31:59,600
nickname for these things

938
00:32:03,350 --> 00:32:01,360
but there was a lot of ridicule in the

939
00:32:04,789 --> 00:32:03,360
squadron because you know if somebody on

940
00:32:06,149 --> 00:32:04,799
your mates when your colleague comes up

941
00:32:07,509 --> 00:32:06,159
and says you know i've been chased

942
00:32:09,750 --> 00:32:07,519
around by this light and i can't get it

943
00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:09,760
off my tail um i fired it and nothing

944
00:32:12,870 --> 00:32:10,720
happened

945
00:32:14,389 --> 00:32:12,880
then you know well you know have you

946
00:32:16,070 --> 00:32:14,399
been drinking you know are you seeing

947
00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:16,080
things are you going mad all this kind

948
00:32:18,710 --> 00:32:17,200
of stuff there was there was a lot of

949
00:32:21,190 --> 00:32:18,720
stigma there was a lot of this kind of

950
00:32:23,029 --> 00:32:21,200
uh ridicule and a lot of uh name calling

951
00:32:25,190 --> 00:32:23,039
and all this so people shut up but

952
00:32:27,269 --> 00:32:25,200
actually this particular squadron most

953
00:32:29,190 --> 00:32:27,279
of the pilots ended up seeing it

954
00:32:31,509 --> 00:32:29,200
and there's one particular story it was

955
00:32:33,909 --> 00:32:31,519
actually a letter that one of the former

956
00:32:39,110 --> 00:32:33,919
pilots wrote to the new zealand air

957
00:32:44,389 --> 00:32:42,389
she's probably getting a call oh okay so

958
00:32:45,990 --> 00:32:44,399
what i want to ask and and chris i don't

959
00:32:48,789 --> 00:32:46,000
know if this popped into your mind but

960
00:32:50,470 --> 00:32:48,799
in terms of debrief of a crew aircraft i

961
00:32:52,789 --> 00:32:50,480
know something you're not all that

962
00:32:53,830 --> 00:32:52,799
uh that part of it but did he get back

963
00:32:55,430 --> 00:32:53,840
up on that

964
00:32:57,269 --> 00:32:55,440
like in other words did the rest of the

965
00:32:59,269 --> 00:32:57,279
crew go yeah i saw that yeah that

966
00:33:01,669 --> 00:32:59,279
happened because you get one or two

967
00:33:04,870 --> 00:33:01,679
defectors and you're screwed if you got

968
00:33:05,750 --> 00:33:04,880
like a six or seven person crew

969
00:33:06,950 --> 00:33:05,760
yeah

970
00:33:08,710 --> 00:33:06,960
if one of them says i didn't see

971
00:33:10,470 --> 00:33:08,720
anything does that shut down the whole

972
00:33:12,789 --> 00:33:10,480
discussion you know i've never been in a

973
00:33:13,590 --> 00:33:12,799
crew debrief uh aircraft debrief i don't

974
00:33:15,350 --> 00:33:13,600
know

975
00:33:17,430 --> 00:33:15,360
every single flight

976
00:33:18,549 --> 00:33:17,440
yeah well at least in afscock every

977
00:33:19,909 --> 00:33:18,559
single flight

978
00:33:22,310 --> 00:33:19,919
so is that what

979
00:33:23,430 --> 00:33:22,320
you guys just talk at the end so i yeah

980
00:33:25,029 --> 00:33:23,440
my question to graham would have been

981
00:33:27,590 --> 00:33:25,039
like how many people is in the is on a

982
00:33:28,950 --> 00:33:27,600
crew you know i'm just curious

983
00:33:30,789 --> 00:33:28,960
sorry about that

984
00:33:33,430 --> 00:33:30,799
you know and then they discuss

985
00:33:35,029 --> 00:33:33,440
no problem yeah they discuss uh

986
00:33:36,310 --> 00:33:35,039
hey did you guys see that off the left

987
00:33:38,389 --> 00:33:36,320
wing and then

988
00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:38,399
you know is it one person that says i

989
00:33:42,149 --> 00:33:40,080
think it was a flying candle you know

990
00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:42,159
right yeah yeah or i didn't see anything

991
00:33:45,830 --> 00:33:43,600
it was just a shiny it was a bright

992
00:33:47,590 --> 00:33:45,840
light or something a star um and then

993
00:33:48,549 --> 00:33:47,600
that shuts it down you know is there

994
00:33:49,509 --> 00:33:48,559
like a

995
00:33:51,430 --> 00:33:49,519
is there a

996
00:33:53,110 --> 00:33:51,440
i guess a mind meld at the end of the

997
00:33:54,470 --> 00:33:53,120
debrief you know which could

998
00:33:56,149 --> 00:33:54,480
could make it go the wrong way you know

999
00:33:57,750 --> 00:33:56,159
if they're like oh one guy's like hey i

1000
00:33:59,430 --> 00:33:57,760
saw a light out there right and you

1001
00:34:01,509 --> 00:33:59,440
could say that well he talked him into

1002
00:34:03,190 --> 00:34:01,519
saying that they see this object you

1003
00:34:06,149 --> 00:34:03,200
know i was just curious how many people

1004
00:34:08,149 --> 00:34:06,159
are on a crew five um okay five people

1005
00:34:09,589 --> 00:34:08,159
awesome yeah but they all saw all of the

1006
00:34:11,510 --> 00:34:09,599
pilots

1007
00:34:13,829 --> 00:34:11,520
according to that it was the the

1008
00:34:15,190 --> 00:34:13,839
the tailgater the the bomb aimer who was

1009
00:34:17,909 --> 00:34:15,200
filling in for the for the nose gonna

1010
00:34:20,710 --> 00:34:17,919
and the pilot they all reported it so

1011
00:34:22,550 --> 00:34:20,720
that they make that what you will um in

1012
00:34:25,270 --> 00:34:22,560
terms of the one sorry the story i was i

1013
00:34:27,430 --> 00:34:25,280
got because my my headphones my earbuds

1014
00:34:29,669 --> 00:34:27,440
decided to give up um

1015
00:34:31,190 --> 00:34:29,679
so 73 squadron in north africa and this

1016
00:34:33,270 --> 00:34:31,200
particular pilot wrote to the new

1017
00:34:34,710 --> 00:34:33,280
zealand air force in 1955 after a

1018
00:34:36,710 --> 00:34:34,720
particular sighting and he said look he

1019
00:34:38,230 --> 00:34:36,720
might be interested in this details and

1020
00:34:40,629 --> 00:34:38,240
he was flying over the desert one night

1021
00:34:42,389 --> 00:34:40,639
on a raid against german targets and he

1022
00:34:44,230 --> 00:34:42,399
was again followed by one of these

1023
00:34:45,750 --> 00:34:44,240
lights and he and it was just setting

1024
00:34:48,629 --> 00:34:45,760
off his wingtip all the time and he

1025
00:34:50,950 --> 00:34:48,639
managed to get because it's he said his

1026
00:34:52,629 --> 00:34:50,960
reactions were slow and slow enough that

1027
00:34:53,990 --> 00:34:52,639
occasionally he could actually get

1028
00:34:56,790 --> 00:34:54,000
behind it

1029
00:34:58,230 --> 00:34:56,800
and open fire at it so several times the

1030
00:34:59,510 --> 00:34:58,240
open fire was with these twenty these

1031
00:35:01,430 --> 00:34:59,520
four twenty millimeter cannon that he

1032
00:35:03,750 --> 00:35:01,440
had under you know on the wings

1033
00:35:05,510 --> 00:35:03,760
again to no effect the light just stayed

1034
00:35:07,750 --> 00:35:05,520
there and it followed him as far as the

1035
00:35:09,750 --> 00:35:07,760
his front line and then it sort of faded

1036
00:35:11,109 --> 00:35:09,760
out but not completely and then he

1037
00:35:13,270 --> 00:35:11,119
turned back to try and resume his

1038
00:35:15,750 --> 00:35:13,280
mission and it was back again

1039
00:35:17,670 --> 00:35:15,760
so for a german secret weapon it wasn't

1040
00:35:19,349 --> 00:35:17,680
particularly effective because it wasn't

1041
00:35:21,829 --> 00:35:19,359
doing anything to him wasn't you know

1042
00:35:23,589 --> 00:35:21,839
and also with the one over essen you

1043
00:35:25,030 --> 00:35:23,599
know if this was some kind of german

1044
00:35:26,950 --> 00:35:25,040
anti-aircraft rocket or some kind of

1045
00:35:32,069 --> 00:35:26,960
scared fire device

1046
00:35:35,190 --> 00:35:33,990
the polish crew dropping their bombs on

1047
00:35:37,030 --> 00:35:35,200
the target

1048
00:35:39,190 --> 00:35:37,040
it was you know it was there afterwards

1049
00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:39,200
it didn't destroy the aircraft because

1050
00:35:42,870 --> 00:35:41,520
they came back to tell the tale so what

1051
00:35:44,870 --> 00:35:42,880
was it you know if it was something

1052
00:35:46,470 --> 00:35:44,880
german what was its purpose other than

1053
00:35:48,230 --> 00:35:46,480
just to give them a bit of a fright well

1054
00:35:49,670 --> 00:35:48,240
they got frights anyway you know that

1055
00:35:51,430 --> 00:35:49,680
was that was just like standard

1056
00:35:53,349 --> 00:35:51,440
procedure for every every night they

1057
00:35:54,950 --> 00:35:53,359
flew over germany or anywhere else you

1058
00:35:56,550 --> 00:35:54,960
know they were scared of their wits most

1059
00:35:58,950 --> 00:35:56,560
of the time so

1060
00:36:00,950 --> 00:35:58,960
it was it was a case of well yeah

1061
00:36:02,150 --> 00:36:00,960
there's so what are these so i go

1062
00:36:04,470 --> 00:36:02,160
through those kind of things in the book

1063
00:36:06,230 --> 00:36:04,480
to say well why why do these things not

1064
00:36:07,430 --> 00:36:06,240
do anything beyond just flying around on

1065
00:36:08,870 --> 00:36:07,440
wing tips

1066
00:36:11,270 --> 00:36:08,880
and scare people they don't do anything

1067
00:36:13,670 --> 00:36:11,280
offensive and that's actually where a

1068
00:36:15,349 --> 00:36:13,680
lot of the the kind of questioning went

1069
00:36:17,190 --> 00:36:15,359
because some intelligence officers one

1070
00:36:18,950 --> 00:36:17,200
particular one said look you know did it

1071
00:36:20,550 --> 00:36:18,960
do anything to your aircraft

1072
00:36:22,310 --> 00:36:20,560
and they said well no it just followed

1073
00:36:23,829 --> 00:36:22,320
us well it's not a very it's not a very

1074
00:36:26,310 --> 00:36:23,839
good weapon then is it you know that's

1075
00:36:28,630 --> 00:36:26,320
the thing that was saying you know so

1076
00:36:30,069 --> 00:36:28,640
right it's it's a it's a conundrum it is

1077
00:36:31,190 --> 00:36:30,079
right

1078
00:36:33,270 --> 00:36:31,200
and graham i guess i have a question

1079
00:36:35,190 --> 00:36:33,280
about this so do you in your estimation

1080
00:36:37,829 --> 00:36:35,200
do you feel that over time

1081
00:36:40,150 --> 00:36:37,839
uh this began to get under reported so

1082
00:36:41,190 --> 00:36:40,160
because it was benign or deemed to be

1083
00:36:43,270 --> 00:36:41,200
benign

1084
00:36:47,750 --> 00:36:43,280
after maybe a few reports do you think

1085
00:36:49,510 --> 00:36:47,760
that the actual record is uh is is less

1086
00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:49,520
uh stacked than it really

1087
00:36:54,069 --> 00:36:51,520
should have been it's difficult to work

1088
00:36:56,310 --> 00:36:54,079
that out nathan because the nature in

1089
00:36:57,829 --> 00:36:56,320
terms of just looking at royal air force

1090
00:36:59,109 --> 00:36:57,839
records the official records for the

1091
00:37:01,750 --> 00:36:59,119
mission logs

1092
00:37:03,270 --> 00:37:01,760
it's very patchy so um i've looked at

1093
00:37:05,349 --> 00:37:03,280
american records so i can i know the

1094
00:37:08,150 --> 00:37:05,359
difference but in terms of the raf the

1095
00:37:09,589 --> 00:37:08,160
bomber units then it was all down to

1096
00:37:11,510 --> 00:37:09,599
almost the whim of the officials who

1097
00:37:12,790 --> 00:37:11,520
were writing up the reports

1098
00:37:14,630 --> 00:37:12,800
now i'll say they'll go through the

1099
00:37:16,710 --> 00:37:14,640
debrief process but how much of that

1100
00:37:19,190 --> 00:37:16,720
information went into the official um

1101
00:37:22,230 --> 00:37:19,200
mission sort of statements for each raid

1102
00:37:23,829 --> 00:37:22,240
for each aircraft was very patchy so you

1103
00:37:27,109 --> 00:37:23,839
take one particular bombing squadron and

1104
00:37:29,589 --> 00:37:27,119
you would get a um seven or eight line

1105
00:37:31,030 --> 00:37:29,599
summary for each aircraft on each raid

1106
00:37:32,870 --> 00:37:31,040
and that would include one you know

1107
00:37:34,069 --> 00:37:32,880
takeoff time landing time time to drop

1108
00:37:37,270 --> 00:37:34,079
their bombs whether they saw any

1109
00:37:38,790 --> 00:37:37,280
searchlights flack anything else unusual

1110
00:37:39,990 --> 00:37:38,800
they're kind of targeting flares that

1111
00:37:41,750 --> 00:37:40,000
they use and all this kind of thing that

1112
00:37:43,670 --> 00:37:41,760
was standard practice and then they

1113
00:37:45,430 --> 00:37:43,680
would also have bits of the other stuff

1114
00:37:47,910 --> 00:37:45,440
the anomalous stuff which i've picked

1115
00:37:49,270 --> 00:37:47,920
out for the book now other squadrons you

1116
00:37:51,349 --> 00:37:49,280
would just get a summary for the raid

1117
00:37:52,710 --> 00:37:51,359
which would encompass all the aircraft

1118
00:37:54,950 --> 00:37:52,720
which could be anything up to 18

1119
00:37:56,310 --> 00:37:54,960
aircraft from one squadron

1120
00:37:58,630 --> 00:37:56,320
and that would just be maybe two or

1121
00:38:00,950 --> 00:37:58,640
three paragraphs but for all 18 aircraft

1122
00:38:02,550 --> 00:38:00,960
rather than one per aircraft and then

1123
00:38:03,670 --> 00:38:02,560
some squadrons you hardly got anything

1124
00:38:05,829 --> 00:38:03,680
at all you'd look if you've got a couple

1125
00:38:09,030 --> 00:38:05,839
of lines and then some you got not at

1126
00:38:10,950 --> 00:38:09,040
all so those those last three categories

1127
00:38:12,390 --> 00:38:10,960
which are just described there who knows

1128
00:38:14,230 --> 00:38:12,400
what was in you know behind those

1129
00:38:16,470 --> 00:38:14,240
reports because there's just no

1130
00:38:17,670 --> 00:38:16,480
information to go on so nathan i can't

1131
00:38:19,510 --> 00:38:17,680
really answer that question with any

1132
00:38:22,310 --> 00:38:19,520
degree of certainty because i've only

1133
00:38:24,470 --> 00:38:22,320
got a very small subset of information

1134
00:38:26,950 --> 00:38:24,480
to be able to go on and i don't know

1135
00:38:28,950 --> 00:38:26,960
what's behind the others so

1136
00:38:31,270 --> 00:38:28,960
you could be right but i don't know this

1137
00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:31,280
is actually emblematic of the entire ufo

1138
00:38:36,630 --> 00:38:34,000
topic because when you go to debrief and

1139
00:38:39,109 --> 00:38:36,640
chris chris understands this and intel

1140
00:38:40,870 --> 00:38:39,119
takes it takes a debrief report or they

1141
00:38:42,870 --> 00:38:40,880
ask you to fill out whatever forms they

1142
00:38:44,950 --> 00:38:42,880
have and then they attach that to

1143
00:38:48,470 --> 00:38:44,960
whatever forms you know whatever you

1144
00:38:51,589 --> 00:38:48,480
told them whatever that intel chief or

1145
00:38:54,230 --> 00:38:51,599
his a or up the line at the squadron

1146
00:38:56,470 --> 00:38:54,240
level group level command level decides

1147
00:38:58,790 --> 00:38:56,480
to do with that is what we're all going

1148
00:39:00,630 --> 00:38:58,800
to see and if somebody decides that that

1149
00:39:02,870 --> 00:39:00,640
information goes away

1150
00:39:04,550 --> 00:39:02,880
because they consider it it looks like

1151
00:39:06,550 --> 00:39:04,560
my crews are crazy

1152
00:39:08,150 --> 00:39:06,560
uh you have three of them that said they

1153
00:39:09,270 --> 00:39:08,160
and we we talked about this when you're

1154
00:39:11,109 --> 00:39:09,280
off headset

1155
00:39:13,829 --> 00:39:11,119
on a crew aircraft it's very important

1156
00:39:15,270 --> 00:39:13,839
to have unanimities so if you if if you

1157
00:39:17,349 --> 00:39:15,280
come back and you debrief something

1158
00:39:18,710 --> 00:39:17,359
everyone else says hey i didn't see it

1159
00:39:21,270 --> 00:39:18,720
you're kind of standing out there in the

1160
00:39:23,750 --> 00:39:21,280
cold and being the flight engineer out

1161
00:39:26,310 --> 00:39:23,760
of seven there's two pilots there's navi

1162
00:39:28,310 --> 00:39:26,320
ewo which are basically both navigators

1163
00:39:30,710 --> 00:39:28,320
and two load masters so the flight

1164
00:39:33,910 --> 00:39:30,720
engineers by himself so if you disagree

1165
00:39:35,030 --> 00:39:33,920
they all just go like this

1166
00:39:37,430 --> 00:39:35,040
and so

1167
00:39:38,950 --> 00:39:37,440
at debrief what chris was asking that

1168
00:39:41,270 --> 00:39:38,960
would have been very interesting if you

1169
00:39:43,589 --> 00:39:41,280
had two or three guys that saw it and

1170
00:39:45,910 --> 00:39:43,599
and maybe two that said hey i didn't see

1171
00:39:47,349 --> 00:39:45,920
anything now that that attacks the

1172
00:39:48,390 --> 00:39:47,359
credibility i'm sorry there are no

1173
00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:48,400
that's fine

1174
00:39:51,829 --> 00:39:50,240
there is another report of another obama

1175
00:39:54,710 --> 00:39:51,839
crew who saw something anomalous again a

1176
00:39:56,550 --> 00:39:54,720
bit later in the war 1943 but because of

1177
00:39:57,750 --> 00:39:56,560
the positions of some of the crew they

1178
00:39:59,109 --> 00:39:57,760
weren't in a position to be able to see

1179
00:40:00,550 --> 00:39:59,119
it anyway because they would be like a

1180
00:40:02,550 --> 00:40:00,560
navigator it would actually be any

1181
00:40:04,230 --> 00:40:02,560
station in the nose of the aircraft but

1182
00:40:05,510 --> 00:40:04,240
in terms of having windows etc they

1183
00:40:06,550 --> 00:40:05,520
weren't necessarily looking out all the

1184
00:40:08,870 --> 00:40:06,560
time because there were heads over the

1185
00:40:10,230 --> 00:40:08,880
maps and the charts and they were too

1186
00:40:12,470 --> 00:40:10,240
busy working things out with slide rules

1187
00:40:14,710 --> 00:40:12,480
and all the rest of it back then so

1188
00:40:16,230 --> 00:40:14,720
there's a couple of cases where maybe um

1189
00:40:17,670 --> 00:40:16,240
a navigator but also somebody else's

1190
00:40:19,109 --> 00:40:17,680
aircraft didn't actually see it whereas

1191
00:40:20,550 --> 00:40:19,119
another five did because some of these

1192
00:40:23,510 --> 00:40:20,560
aircraft were have seven crew on board

1193
00:40:25,430 --> 00:40:23,520
like a lancaster or a halifax so you did

1194
00:40:27,670 --> 00:40:25,440
have cash you have cases where you know

1195
00:40:28,550 --> 00:40:27,680
one or two people didn't actually see it

1196
00:40:30,710 --> 00:40:28,560
but

1197
00:40:32,630 --> 00:40:30,720
the majority did so

1198
00:40:34,069 --> 00:40:32,640
you you possibly have to go with that it

1199
00:40:35,430 --> 00:40:34,079
might be a different story nowadays in

1200
00:40:36,870 --> 00:40:35,440
terms of you know seeing something if

1201
00:40:38,309 --> 00:40:36,880
not everybody sees it then there's some

1202
00:40:39,349 --> 00:40:38,319
questions too

1203
00:40:40,950 --> 00:40:39,359
everybody's just playing some kind of

1204
00:40:43,589 --> 00:40:40,960
game or any kind of mind game with

1205
00:40:45,670 --> 00:40:43,599
people but back then if somebody said

1206
00:40:47,349 --> 00:40:45,680
that they saw something then it was it

1207
00:40:48,790 --> 00:40:47,359
was it was taken fairly seriously

1208
00:40:50,550 --> 00:40:48,800
because everything might have been a

1209
00:40:52,790 --> 00:40:50,560
secret weapon and there was a lot of

1210
00:40:54,230 --> 00:40:52,800
that because they all wanted information

1211
00:40:57,510 --> 00:40:54,240
about potential you know new

1212
00:41:00,550 --> 00:40:57,520
developments in in warfare um there is

1213
00:41:02,150 --> 00:41:00,560
actually analysis from 1940 and this is

1214
00:41:04,630 --> 00:41:02,160
going back quite early there's no

1215
00:41:06,069 --> 00:41:04,640
particular information about cases but

1216
00:41:08,069 --> 00:41:06,079
intelligence reports from back then

1217
00:41:09,910 --> 00:41:08,079
state about peculiar incidents and

1218
00:41:12,470 --> 00:41:09,920
that's the phrase they use but they also

1219
00:41:14,950 --> 00:41:12,480
then say that in most of the cases only

1220
00:41:16,790 --> 00:41:14,960
one person in the aircraft saw it

1221
00:41:18,309 --> 00:41:16,800
and then and because some of the crew

1222
00:41:19,990 --> 00:41:18,319
bear in mind the crews were smaller back

1223
00:41:21,109 --> 00:41:20,000
in the early days of the war some of

1224
00:41:22,790 --> 00:41:21,119
those aircraft and the bomber aircraft

1225
00:41:23,670 --> 00:41:22,800
sometimes only three or four people on

1226
00:41:24,710 --> 00:41:23,680
board

1227
00:41:26,950 --> 00:41:24,720
so

1228
00:41:29,190 --> 00:41:26,960
but in in many cases i was thinking it

1229
00:41:31,750 --> 00:41:29,200
was 92 percent there was only one person

1230
00:41:33,990 --> 00:41:31,760
involved in the sighting but in so so in

1231
00:41:35,430 --> 00:41:34,000
some they did have multiple witnesses

1232
00:41:36,870 --> 00:41:35,440
but that obviously increases the war

1233
00:41:39,190 --> 00:41:36,880
went on the aircraft got bigger got

1234
00:41:40,870 --> 00:41:39,200
heavier and had more crew on board um

1235
00:41:42,790 --> 00:41:40,880
and in some of the american there's an

1236
00:41:44,150 --> 00:41:42,800
american uh anti-submarine aircraft it

1237
00:41:45,990 --> 00:41:44,160
was actually a u.s army air force

1238
00:41:47,910 --> 00:41:46,000
aircraft not a u.s navy one over the bay

1239
00:41:49,430 --> 00:41:47,920
of biscay in november 1942 and

1240
00:41:51,270 --> 00:41:49,440
apparently everybody on the aircraft saw

1241
00:41:53,109 --> 00:41:51,280
it and they even took pictures of it and

1242
00:41:56,069 --> 00:41:53,119
that was a again something that came

1243
00:41:57,510 --> 00:41:56,079
like a big kind of um object or a disc

1244
00:41:59,510 --> 00:41:57,520
that came up behind an aircraft over the

1245
00:42:01,990 --> 00:41:59,520
bay biscuit of france

1246
00:42:03,270 --> 00:42:02,000
um and so there's one particular person

1247
00:42:04,870 --> 00:42:03,280
on there and the aircraft took a picture

1248
00:42:06,790 --> 00:42:04,880
of it or several pitches but those

1249
00:42:09,510 --> 00:42:06,800
pictures have never turned up and you

1250
00:42:10,710 --> 00:42:09,520
know djs you say if the higher-ups when

1251
00:42:11,990 --> 00:42:10,720
you get back and you have the debrief

1252
00:42:13,270 --> 00:42:12,000
they swirl it away and they don't want

1253
00:42:14,470 --> 00:42:13,280
anybody to know well of course you're

1254
00:42:16,550 --> 00:42:14,480
never going to find out are you it's

1255
00:42:17,670 --> 00:42:16,560
just going to get locked away now having

1256
00:42:18,710 --> 00:42:17,680
said that

1257
00:42:20,550 --> 00:42:18,720
some

1258
00:42:23,109 --> 00:42:20,560
enlightened i suppose you do that term

1259
00:42:24,870 --> 00:42:23,119
um senior officers not not just at

1260
00:42:27,510 --> 00:42:24,880
squadron level but also at group level

1261
00:42:29,589 --> 00:42:27,520
because um the rf bomber fleet was

1262
00:42:31,190 --> 00:42:29,599
organized into a series of like half a

1263
00:42:33,030 --> 00:42:31,200
dozen or maybe more squadrons that made

1264
00:42:35,030 --> 00:42:33,040
up a group of aircraft and there were

1265
00:42:37,109 --> 00:42:35,040
several groups of bombers obama in arya

1266
00:42:38,309 --> 00:42:37,119
obama command during the war

1267
00:42:40,470 --> 00:42:38,319
there's a particular incident which

1268
00:42:41,589 --> 00:42:40,480
happened in november 1942 over northern

1269
00:42:42,710 --> 00:42:41,599
italy

1270
00:42:44,470 --> 00:42:42,720
where a

1271
00:42:46,950 --> 00:42:44,480
aircraft flying from england which was

1272
00:42:49,589 --> 00:42:46,960
attacking a engine factory in turin

1273
00:42:53,030 --> 00:42:49,599
came across a 200 foot long

1274
00:42:55,030 --> 00:42:53,040
torpedo-shaped object over the alps wow

1275
00:42:56,790 --> 00:42:55,040
yeah quite large

1276
00:42:58,069 --> 00:42:56,800
they saw it twice the fur the second

1277
00:42:59,750 --> 00:42:58,079
time they saw it flying at mountain

1278
00:43:01,109 --> 00:42:59,760
valley

1279
00:43:03,430 --> 00:43:01,119
much lower

1280
00:43:06,150 --> 00:43:03,440
so independence day stuff right there

1281
00:43:07,589 --> 00:43:06,160
man that is that's wild now

1282
00:43:09,349 --> 00:43:07,599
so take that story you know whichever

1283
00:43:10,950 --> 00:43:09,359
way you want but the the important thing

1284
00:43:12,870 --> 00:43:10,960
is that when they go back to base they

1285
00:43:14,630 --> 00:43:12,880
were taken seriously not just by the

1286
00:43:16,470 --> 00:43:14,640
squadron leader in charge in charge of

1287
00:43:19,030 --> 00:43:16,480
the unit but that information was passed

1288
00:43:20,390 --> 00:43:19,040
up to group level and despite the the

1289
00:43:21,990 --> 00:43:20,400
rejoiner on the on the letter when it

1290
00:43:23,109 --> 00:43:22,000
passed even further of the chain because

1291
00:43:24,870 --> 00:43:23,119
you can only go so far with the

1292
00:43:27,510 --> 00:43:24,880
information in terms of official records

1293
00:43:29,109 --> 00:43:27,520
it communicates but there is a regina on

1294
00:43:31,589 --> 00:43:29,119
the information that they pass on today

1295
00:43:33,910 --> 00:43:31,599
despite the level of ridiculous crew

1296
00:43:35,430 --> 00:43:33,920
have been subjected to they stand by

1297
00:43:37,430 --> 00:43:35,440
their story

1298
00:43:39,510 --> 00:43:37,440
wow so that's a strong interesting thing

1299
00:43:41,190 --> 00:43:39,520
you know so that was also recognized by

1300
00:43:43,109 --> 00:43:41,200
the senior officers not just at squadron

1301
00:43:45,349 --> 00:43:43,119
level but a group level and they did

1302
00:43:47,589 --> 00:43:45,359
pass it on now what happened to that um

1303
00:43:49,190 --> 00:43:47,599
information and what analysis was done i

1304
00:43:51,670 --> 00:43:49,200
couldn't find anything the paper trail

1305
00:43:53,030 --> 00:43:51,680
goes cold at that point that's a

1306
00:43:56,550 --> 00:43:53,040
surprise

1307
00:43:57,990 --> 00:43:56,560
[Laughter]

1308
00:44:00,069 --> 00:43:58,000
you mentioned uh

1309
00:44:01,670 --> 00:44:00,079
that they shoot at it you know this is

1310
00:44:05,349 --> 00:44:01,680
it and and actually it's kind of the

1311
00:44:06,550 --> 00:44:05,359
first response i i have

1312
00:44:08,230 --> 00:44:06,560
you know it's kind of like a dog you

1313
00:44:09,510 --> 00:44:08,240
know how does a dog interact with the

1314
00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:09,520
environment it just bites you know

1315
00:44:12,550 --> 00:44:11,280
whatever it is you know it's like

1316
00:44:14,230 --> 00:44:12,560
it's kind of the only way to enter you

1317
00:44:15,750 --> 00:44:14,240
know first i'm not trying the radio you

1318
00:44:17,349 --> 00:44:15,760
know it's a is it communicating at all

1319
00:44:18,790 --> 00:44:17,359
on the radio and then i'll try and maybe

1320
00:44:21,030 --> 00:44:18,800
get closer to it

1321
00:44:22,870 --> 00:44:21,040
you know is it reacting to me

1322
00:44:24,390 --> 00:44:22,880
um but then you know assuming i can

1323
00:44:25,589 --> 00:44:24,400
actually fire my weapon which you know

1324
00:44:27,030 --> 00:44:25,599
in world war ii i think they were

1325
00:44:28,710 --> 00:44:27,040
probably just doing it for fun sometimes

1326
00:44:31,190 --> 00:44:28,720
or at least tested

1327
00:44:31,990 --> 00:44:31,200
uh then i think i would be shooting next

1328
00:44:33,750 --> 00:44:32,000
you know

1329
00:44:35,270 --> 00:44:33,760
do you find that's the normal reaction

1330
00:44:37,670 --> 00:44:35,280
like is everybody shooting at these

1331
00:44:39,030 --> 00:44:37,680
things or is that no every rare occasion

1332
00:44:40,870 --> 00:44:39,040
it was more to do with the fact that

1333
00:44:42,150 --> 00:44:40,880
because they that everything that they

1334
00:44:43,589 --> 00:44:42,160
thought they saw that they were saying

1335
00:44:45,750 --> 00:44:43,599
was a joke was a german knight fighter

1336
00:44:47,510 --> 00:44:45,760
or some kind of you know aerial device

1337
00:44:49,190 --> 00:44:47,520
then it got close enough within range

1338
00:44:51,349 --> 00:44:49,200
and effective range they would open fire

1339
00:44:53,349 --> 00:44:51,359
in it and also the i think the machine

1340
00:44:55,270 --> 00:44:53,359
guns they had were effective up to over

1341
00:44:56,390 --> 00:44:55,280
a thousand yards but sorry they could

1342
00:44:57,990 --> 00:44:56,400
fire over a thousand yards but that

1343
00:44:59,589 --> 00:44:58,000
wasn't an effective range the effective

1344
00:45:01,190 --> 00:44:59,599
range was much closer

1345
00:45:03,430 --> 00:45:01,200
so we'd often wait they would often wait

1346
00:45:05,030 --> 00:45:03,440
until they got you know much much closer

1347
00:45:06,069 --> 00:45:05,040
i think you're talking about 400 yards

1348
00:45:07,510 --> 00:45:06,079
or less

1349
00:45:09,190 --> 00:45:07,520
and and the actual german knight

1350
00:45:11,270 --> 00:45:09,200
fighters themselves would position

1351
00:45:13,510 --> 00:45:11,280
themselves behind and below the aircraft

1352
00:45:15,430 --> 00:45:13,520
and then fire sort of in a diagonal kind

1353
00:45:17,430 --> 00:45:15,440
of like attack at the

1354
00:45:19,349 --> 00:45:17,440
you know the base below the aircraft

1355
00:45:22,069 --> 00:45:19,359
until they got those upward firing guns

1356
00:45:23,430 --> 00:45:22,079
the shiraz music uh the jazz music guns

1357
00:45:25,430 --> 00:45:23,440
that they called them that was a special

1358
00:45:27,510 --> 00:45:25,440
field modification and they were upward

1359
00:45:28,710 --> 00:45:27,520
firing guns at an angle of 45 degrees or

1360
00:45:30,710 --> 00:45:28,720
something and they would just fly

1361
00:45:32,309 --> 00:45:30,720
underneath the fuel tanks between the

1362
00:45:34,230 --> 00:45:32,319
the engines and the fuselage and just

1363
00:45:35,589 --> 00:45:34,240
open fire and that would just blow the

1364
00:45:37,030 --> 00:45:35,599
aircraft up you know sort of thing so

1365
00:45:38,470 --> 00:45:37,040
that was quite an effective weapon so

1366
00:45:39,750 --> 00:45:38,480
there's different ways they did it but

1367
00:45:40,790 --> 00:45:39,760
anything that they saw closing on the

1368
00:45:42,390 --> 00:45:40,800
aircraft of course they were going to

1369
00:45:43,670 --> 00:45:42,400
open fire in it because it was potential

1370
00:45:45,670 --> 00:45:43,680
something that would shoot them down you

1371
00:45:47,349 --> 00:45:45,680
know so there was no kind of we'll radio

1372
00:45:48,710 --> 00:45:47,359
them find out who they are we'll we'll

1373
00:45:50,309 --> 00:45:48,720
we'll see how close they get and then we

1374
00:45:52,550 --> 00:45:50,319
can determine what they are if they got

1375
00:45:54,069 --> 00:45:52,560
close enough effective range opened fire

1376
00:45:55,829 --> 00:45:54,079
it was standard practice and you

1377
00:45:57,829 --> 00:45:55,839
mentioned a lot of this was at night you

1378
00:45:59,510 --> 00:45:57,839
know um

1379
00:46:01,430 --> 00:45:59,520
all at night i guess at that time the

1380
00:46:03,750 --> 00:46:01,440
war definitely yes yeah but then we went

1381
00:46:05,430 --> 00:46:03,760
to daylight what is it high altitude

1382
00:46:07,750 --> 00:46:05,440
precision bombing daylight you know

1383
00:46:09,750 --> 00:46:07,760
which was january 1943.

1384
00:46:12,069 --> 00:46:09,760
and so did they see

1385
00:46:13,670 --> 00:46:12,079
do we have continued uh sightings you

1386
00:46:15,829 --> 00:46:13,680
know so you have a different you have

1387
00:46:17,829 --> 00:46:15,839
different phenomenon for the for the us

1388
00:46:20,470 --> 00:46:17,839
army air force flying daylight raids

1389
00:46:22,870 --> 00:46:20,480
over germany now bearing in mind the

1390
00:46:24,630 --> 00:46:22,880
with a few exceptions the the us army

1391
00:46:26,630 --> 00:46:24,640
air force didn't fly at night

1392
00:46:28,550 --> 00:46:26,640
um that much

1393
00:46:30,550 --> 00:46:28,560
it was a terrible idea as well if i

1394
00:46:33,670 --> 00:46:30,560
remember looking back like they just got

1395
00:46:36,390 --> 00:46:33,680
shot shot to hell um yeah yeah the

1396
00:46:38,230 --> 00:46:36,400
attribution the americans did

1397
00:46:41,109 --> 00:46:38,240
sorry no they can say the attrition

1398
00:46:42,550 --> 00:46:41,119
rates were uh scaringly scaringly high

1399
00:46:44,550 --> 00:46:42,560
very high yeah the americans did

1400
00:46:46,550 --> 00:46:44,560
actually try it to start with but they

1401
00:46:47,589 --> 00:46:46,560
they didn't work for them because of the

1402
00:46:49,270 --> 00:46:47,599
particular way they flew and the

1403
00:46:51,430 --> 00:46:49,280
particular equipment they had and the

1404
00:46:53,589 --> 00:46:51,440
aircraft they used what weren't suitable

1405
00:46:55,910 --> 00:46:53,599
really for nighttime operations

1406
00:46:58,309 --> 00:46:55,920
so they did actually decide to do in the

1407
00:47:00,870 --> 00:46:58,319
daytime and from 40 and january 43 they

1408
00:47:02,069 --> 00:47:00,880
flew daylight raised over germany um and

1409
00:47:03,589 --> 00:47:02,079
they were much better suited to that

1410
00:47:05,109 --> 00:47:03,599
than our aircraft because our aircraft

1411
00:47:06,870 --> 00:47:05,119
were optimized for night

1412
00:47:08,710 --> 00:47:06,880
but they started saying strange things

1413
00:47:10,150 --> 00:47:08,720
but not lights because they wouldn't see

1414
00:47:11,270 --> 00:47:10,160
lights in the daytime they started

1415
00:47:13,349 --> 00:47:11,280
things that were called and they had

1416
00:47:15,349 --> 00:47:13,359
some really weird names which actually

1417
00:47:16,550 --> 00:47:15,359
appear in all the official records so

1418
00:47:18,150 --> 00:47:16,560
you're looking at a squadron level

1419
00:47:20,150 --> 00:47:18,160
you're looking sometimes at um at group

1420
00:47:21,270 --> 00:47:20,160
level or even at wing level and you'll

1421
00:47:23,589 --> 00:47:21,280
have things like

1422
00:47:25,430 --> 00:47:23,599
cottonwood cottonwood balls

1423
00:47:26,710 --> 00:47:25,440
swarms of bees

1424
00:47:28,069 --> 00:47:26,720
that's two of the

1425
00:47:30,069 --> 00:47:28,079
and then you know there's other things

1426
00:47:32,230 --> 00:47:30,079
as well and there was um silver spheres

1427
00:47:34,150 --> 00:47:32,240
they saw now none of these can be sort

1428
00:47:37,030 --> 00:47:34,160
of like sort of attributed to german

1429
00:47:40,470 --> 00:47:37,040
secret weapons any kind of flak rockets

1430
00:47:42,870 --> 00:47:40,480
or aircraft or other kinds of flak just

1431
00:47:44,870 --> 00:47:42,880
like general anti-aircraft

1432
00:47:47,829 --> 00:47:44,880
in terms of the explosions because the

1433
00:47:50,870 --> 00:47:47,839
raf bomber command operational research

1434
00:47:52,549 --> 00:47:50,880
section did huge amounts of research on

1435
00:47:53,829 --> 00:47:52,559
how effective the german anti-aircraft

1436
00:47:55,829 --> 00:47:53,839
defenses were

1437
00:47:57,829 --> 00:47:55,839
not just you know just once once or

1438
00:47:59,589 --> 00:47:57,839
twice but every month

1439
00:48:00,870 --> 00:47:59,599
right through the wall and those reports

1440
00:48:02,069 --> 00:48:00,880
you can read through them and that's

1441
00:48:04,390 --> 00:48:02,079
where you get the reports of all this

1442
00:48:05,910 --> 00:48:04,400
strange stuff as well that's how you

1443
00:48:07,750 --> 00:48:05,920
found the info well that's how you find

1444
00:48:09,829 --> 00:48:07,760
them but also in the american report so

1445
00:48:11,829 --> 00:48:09,839
if you go through the um america the air

1446
00:48:13,589 --> 00:48:11,839
force historical research agency in

1447
00:48:15,990 --> 00:48:13,599
maxwell air force base you can get a

1448
00:48:18,069 --> 00:48:16,000
hold of the american equivalents orderly

1449
00:48:21,030 --> 00:48:18,079
sister from kind of

1450
00:48:23,030 --> 00:48:21,040
squadron group level and they have

1451
00:48:23,910 --> 00:48:23,040
reports of these weird things as well

1452
00:48:25,510 --> 00:48:23,920
and they do a little bit of

1453
00:48:28,390 --> 00:48:25,520
announcements by a squadron and group

1454
00:48:30,069 --> 00:48:28,400
level but they get nowhere um and

1455
00:48:31,829 --> 00:48:30,079
sometime later in the war when they

1456
00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:31,839
started saying things nights the night

1457
00:48:35,670 --> 00:48:33,119
fighter squadrons that were based in

1458
00:48:37,829 --> 00:48:35,680
europe started seeing things over um

1459
00:48:40,790 --> 00:48:37,839
eastern france belgium and western

1460
00:48:42,790 --> 00:48:40,800
germany they then started pushing

1461
00:48:44,630 --> 00:48:42,800
requests up the chain of command to find

1462
00:48:46,390 --> 00:48:44,640
out what these things were

1463
00:48:48,069 --> 00:48:46,400
and actually at the end the us army air

1464
00:48:49,910 --> 00:48:48,079
force in terms of tactical air command

1465
00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:49,920
level passed it on to the british airman

1466
00:48:53,030 --> 00:48:51,040
stream

1467
00:48:55,030 --> 00:48:53,040
because they didn't have the necessary

1468
00:48:56,470 --> 00:48:55,040
analytical skills presumably why else

1469
00:48:57,750 --> 00:48:56,480
would they pass it to the british they

1470
00:48:59,510 --> 00:48:57,760
they thought they had a particular skill

1471
00:49:00,950 --> 00:48:59,520
set in terms of intelligence to try and

1472
00:49:03,190 --> 00:49:00,960
get a hold of you know get their heads

1473
00:49:04,470 --> 00:49:03,200
wrapped around the problem um the actual

1474
00:49:06,790 --> 00:49:04,480
the british air ministry turned around

1475
00:49:08,390 --> 00:49:06,800
in february in march 1945 and said they

1476
00:49:09,990 --> 00:49:08,400
just mentioned with two six twos that

1477
00:49:10,950 --> 00:49:10,000
was the german jet fighter that's what

1478
00:49:12,390 --> 00:49:10,960
they said

1479
00:49:13,990 --> 00:49:12,400
they weren't yeah

1480
00:49:16,790 --> 00:49:14,000
you know there's there's like three

1481
00:49:19,349 --> 00:49:16,800
other places that that i want to go in

1482
00:49:21,030 --> 00:49:19,359
in general terms uh one of the things

1483
00:49:22,950 --> 00:49:21,040
i'm going to want to do is to try to

1484
00:49:25,750 --> 00:49:22,960
draw a parallel of

1485
00:49:27,589 --> 00:49:25,760
why people should find this important to

1486
00:49:30,069 --> 00:49:27,599
the conversations that we're having

1487
00:49:32,309 --> 00:49:30,079
today about craft we're seeing today and

1488
00:49:34,069 --> 00:49:32,319
i think graham will be able to draw this

1489
00:49:36,790 --> 00:49:34,079
sort of direct line

1490
00:49:38,549 --> 00:49:36,800
from 1943 until now

1491
00:49:40,950 --> 00:49:38,559
and the other part of it is i kind of

1492
00:49:43,030 --> 00:49:40,960
want to get what graham feels

1493
00:49:44,790 --> 00:49:43,040
uh what's it what's important to him

1494
00:49:47,190 --> 00:49:44,800
what's striking to him

1495
00:49:49,030 --> 00:49:47,200
uh that's that's uh happening in the

1496
00:49:51,750 --> 00:49:49,040
topic overall what

1497
00:49:54,870 --> 00:49:51,760
intrigues him uh what are the areas that

1498
00:49:56,470 --> 00:49:54,880
he's focused on and i also for my

1499
00:49:58,069 --> 00:49:56,480
brother chris

1500
00:50:01,270 --> 00:49:58,079
i think you and i it's gonna be on

1501
00:50:03,670 --> 00:50:01,280
incumbent upon us this is just a way

1502
00:50:05,190 --> 00:50:03,680
aside from this interviews to reach back

1503
00:50:07,109 --> 00:50:05,200
to the air force community and try to

1504
00:50:09,670 --> 00:50:07,119
find out if anything's being briefed

1505
00:50:12,230 --> 00:50:09,680
about hey look out for this hey this is

1506
00:50:13,349 --> 00:50:12,240
a thing or we're not talking about it

1507
00:50:15,030 --> 00:50:13,359
and

1508
00:50:17,109 --> 00:50:15,040
if we can figure out a way without

1509
00:50:20,150 --> 00:50:17,119
looking like crazy people to

1510
00:50:22,790 --> 00:50:20,160
have that discussion which is you know

1511
00:50:24,790 --> 00:50:22,800
people are going to look at us like that

1512
00:50:27,430 --> 00:50:24,800
and i'll try from my end and i'd love it

1513
00:50:29,270 --> 00:50:27,440
if you tried from your end but that's

1514
00:50:31,349 --> 00:50:29,280
out and away from this this particular

1515
00:50:34,069 --> 00:50:31,359
interview but graham what do you think

1516
00:50:36,069 --> 00:50:34,079
that people should draw from

1517
00:50:37,750 --> 00:50:36,079
what happened back then and how

1518
00:50:38,790 --> 00:50:37,760
pertinent that is to what we're seeing

1519
00:50:41,190 --> 00:50:38,800
today

1520
00:50:42,870 --> 00:50:41,200
because you can sort of

1521
00:50:44,870 --> 00:50:42,880
in my mind you can sort of draw this

1522
00:50:46,230 --> 00:50:44,880
line well if they're seeing these kind

1523
00:50:48,549 --> 00:50:46,240
of like tic tac

1524
00:50:49,510 --> 00:50:48,559
shaped craft back then then that means

1525
00:50:51,589 --> 00:50:49,520
or

1526
00:50:53,270 --> 00:50:51,599
that didn't just appear like in

1527
00:50:55,589 --> 00:50:53,280
2014

1528
00:50:56,309 --> 00:50:55,599
yeah and and i'm curious too sort of you

1529
00:50:57,829 --> 00:50:56,319
know

1530
00:50:59,990 --> 00:50:57,839
the theories that you have that that

1531
00:51:01,829 --> 00:51:00,000
seem most plausible and then the other

1532
00:51:04,150 --> 00:51:01,839
thing that comes to mind for me

1533
00:51:05,270 --> 00:51:04,160
is this topic of

1534
00:51:06,710 --> 00:51:05,280
presence

1535
00:51:09,430 --> 00:51:06,720
and that is that

1536
00:51:11,349 --> 00:51:09,440
in the in the war uh it was probably the

1537
00:51:14,150 --> 00:51:11,359
first time in history where we had a

1538
00:51:16,150 --> 00:51:14,160
high density presence in the air

1539
00:51:18,069 --> 00:51:16,160
and so we're in an environment that we

1540
00:51:19,750 --> 00:51:18,079
were not normally in

1541
00:51:20,630 --> 00:51:19,760
and then we were seeing things and so

1542
00:51:23,030 --> 00:51:20,640
that's

1543
00:51:25,910 --> 00:51:23,040
a similar sort of story we hear now

1544
00:51:28,150 --> 00:51:25,920
about our ability to sense what is in

1545
00:51:30,069 --> 00:51:28,160
our environment our ability to gather

1546
00:51:31,910 --> 00:51:30,079
intelligence about what is occurring in

1547
00:51:33,430 --> 00:51:31,920
our operating spaces and i just wonder

1548
00:51:34,470 --> 00:51:33,440
if there is some sort of correlation

1549
00:51:35,670 --> 00:51:34,480
there

1550
00:51:37,829 --> 00:51:35,680
are we

1551
00:51:39,510 --> 00:51:37,839
navigating in spaces that we're not

1552
00:51:41,430 --> 00:51:39,520
accustomed to but because we are now

1553
00:51:43,270 --> 00:51:41,440
present in them we're now just able to

1554
00:51:44,790 --> 00:51:43,280
see what is happening

1555
00:51:46,630 --> 00:51:44,800
yeah so

1556
00:51:49,510 --> 00:51:46,640
in terms of i'll answer that question as

1557
00:51:52,470 --> 00:51:49,520
well as as djs to

1558
00:51:55,990 --> 00:51:52,480
for 50 years the foo fighters were

1559
00:51:57,589 --> 00:51:56,000
effectively the cinderella of ufology

1560
00:52:00,069 --> 00:51:57,599
there was something that just everybody

1561
00:52:02,870 --> 00:52:00,079
thought was a very very localized

1562
00:52:04,950 --> 00:52:02,880
very narrow focus phenomenon which had a

1563
00:52:07,670 --> 00:52:04,960
few sightings in a certain part of

1564
00:52:09,109 --> 00:52:07,680
europe over a very very constricted time

1565
00:52:10,870 --> 00:52:09,119
frame and that was all because of a

1566
00:52:12,309 --> 00:52:10,880
couple of factors one because there was

1567
00:52:13,589 --> 00:52:12,319
only a limited number of site things

1568
00:52:15,109 --> 00:52:13,599
available to the public and they came

1569
00:52:18,230 --> 00:52:15,119
from a magazine article was published in

1570
00:52:19,990 --> 00:52:18,240
december 1945 by an aide to general hub

1571
00:52:21,910 --> 00:52:20,000
arnold who was the head of the us army

1572
00:52:23,510 --> 00:52:21,920
air force during world war ii

1573
00:52:25,270 --> 00:52:23,520
and that's with a couple of other

1574
00:52:27,510 --> 00:52:25,280
sightings in this article it was about

1575
00:52:28,870 --> 00:52:27,520
nine in total and that was the sum total

1576
00:52:31,829 --> 00:52:28,880
of everything to do with the foe

1577
00:52:33,349 --> 00:52:31,839
fighters up until about 1995 with a few

1578
00:52:35,430 --> 00:52:33,359
exceptions a couple of the stories came

1579
00:52:37,510 --> 00:52:35,440
out through ufo newsletters and some

1580
00:52:40,150 --> 00:52:37,520
other uh limited public uh run

1581
00:52:41,990 --> 00:52:40,160
publications and a few other outlets and

1582
00:52:44,870 --> 00:52:42,000
some ufo books in this in the 80s and

1583
00:52:47,430 --> 00:52:44,880
90s so you had about maybe

1584
00:52:50,549 --> 00:52:47,440
a couple of dozen at the most cases but

1585
00:52:52,470 --> 00:52:50,559
that's all it were until about 1995 and

1586
00:52:55,430 --> 00:52:52,480
there'd be no real attempts to actually

1587
00:52:57,109 --> 00:52:55,440
verify a lot of the details in them

1588
00:52:58,150 --> 00:52:57,119
unlike quite a lot of other cases of

1589
00:53:00,069 --> 00:52:58,160
people that tried to search through

1590
00:53:01,910 --> 00:53:00,079
documents to try and back some of these

1591
00:53:03,670 --> 00:53:01,920
stories up but nothing had been done by

1592
00:53:05,190 --> 00:53:03,680
the foo fighters you were lucky you

1593
00:53:06,790 --> 00:53:05,200
could find a book that actually hadn't

1594
00:53:09,910 --> 00:53:06,800
mentioned of them never mind any kind of

1595
00:53:11,670 --> 00:53:09,920
analysis now in 1995's uh citizens

1596
00:53:13,190 --> 00:53:11,680
against ufo secrecy who was a pressure

1597
00:53:14,630 --> 00:53:13,200
group they managed to get into the war

1598
00:53:16,230 --> 00:53:14,640
diaries for the 415th knight fighter

1599
00:53:18,150 --> 00:53:16,240
squadron which was one of the units in

1600
00:53:20,390 --> 00:53:18,160
europe that actually encountered the foo

1601
00:53:22,710 --> 00:53:20,400
fighters and one of their personnel

1602
00:53:23,990 --> 00:53:22,720
actually came up with that name for for

1603
00:53:25,430 --> 00:53:24,000
the phenomenon actually they called it

1604
00:53:31,190 --> 00:53:25,440
something else that a name at the start

1605
00:53:35,990 --> 00:53:31,910
yeah

1606
00:53:38,230 --> 00:53:36,000
okay so um but that's by the way so

1607
00:53:40,069 --> 00:53:38,240
this kind of limited for not um

1608
00:53:41,829 --> 00:53:40,079
phenomenon like you know it's got this

1609
00:53:43,109 --> 00:53:41,839
50-year baggage behind it where nothing

1610
00:53:45,510 --> 00:53:43,119
really was done in terms of trying to

1611
00:53:47,829 --> 00:53:45,520
work out the scale of it not just in

1612
00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:47,839
terms of its geographical kind of spread

1613
00:53:51,510 --> 00:53:49,760
but also its time frame so everybody

1614
00:53:53,349 --> 00:53:51,520
just thought it was from november 1944

1615
00:53:55,670 --> 00:53:53,359
for six months to the end of the war

1616
00:53:56,870 --> 00:53:55,680
um and then in 1995 people got into the

1617
00:53:58,390 --> 00:53:56,880
war diary so they could start to

1618
00:54:00,470 --> 00:53:58,400
corroborate the stories that were

1619
00:54:02,790 --> 00:54:00,480
already there and they did that and then

1620
00:54:03,990 --> 00:54:02,800
some other stories came out as well um

1621
00:54:08,950 --> 00:54:04,000
now

1622
00:54:10,470 --> 00:54:08,960
you saying this is a kind of um

1623
00:54:13,190 --> 00:54:10,480
is a progression from the war and it's

1624
00:54:15,589 --> 00:54:13,200
carry on today well that's true probably

1625
00:54:17,030 --> 00:54:15,599
because the spread of the food fighters

1626
00:54:19,510 --> 00:54:17,040
during second world war is much wider

1627
00:54:21,030 --> 00:54:19,520
than people you know sort of believe

1628
00:54:23,030 --> 00:54:21,040
when i started doing some research from

1629
00:54:25,109 --> 00:54:23,040
the book i started digging into the raf

1630
00:54:26,390 --> 00:54:25,119
records quite deeply and bobber

1631
00:54:27,829 --> 00:54:26,400
squadrons that were based in italy that

1632
00:54:30,150 --> 00:54:27,839
were working over the balkans during

1633
00:54:32,230 --> 00:54:30,160
1944 and there are tons of reports of

1634
00:54:34,150 --> 00:54:32,240
mystery lights

1635
00:54:36,069 --> 00:54:34,160
lights that surround aircraft six or

1636
00:54:37,750 --> 00:54:36,079
more at a time sometimes or things that

1637
00:54:40,069 --> 00:54:37,760
are flying whizzing through the skies

1638
00:54:42,390 --> 00:54:40,079
now the air now the germans did actually

1639
00:54:43,510 --> 00:54:42,400
have air-to-air rocket mortars but they

1640
00:54:45,349 --> 00:54:43,520
only ever use them in the daytime

1641
00:54:46,710 --> 00:54:45,359
whereas these are being seen at night

1642
00:54:48,470 --> 00:54:46,720
and they didn't have any operational

1643
00:54:49,589 --> 00:54:48,480
flak rockets so they didn't have any

1644
00:54:51,190 --> 00:54:49,599
aircraft rockets or you know

1645
00:54:52,309 --> 00:54:51,200
service-to-air missiles things like that

1646
00:54:55,030 --> 00:54:52,319
and they didn't have any air-to-air

1647
00:54:56,230 --> 00:54:55,040
missiles either that actually worked so

1648
00:54:58,069 --> 00:54:56,240
you have to wonder what these things

1649
00:55:00,150 --> 00:54:58,079
were and this is in posit part of the

1650
00:55:02,230 --> 00:55:00,160
war where it was a backwater in terms of

1651
00:55:03,829 --> 00:55:02,240
modern technology for the war where you

1652
00:55:06,069 --> 00:55:03,839
know they didn't send all their best

1653
00:55:08,150 --> 00:55:06,079
equipment out to the likes of hungary or

1654
00:55:09,349 --> 00:55:08,160
romania or bulgaria and yet these are

1655
00:55:11,750 --> 00:55:09,359
places where these strange things are

1656
00:55:13,430 --> 00:55:11,760
being seen so you have to take all that

1657
00:55:15,270 --> 00:55:13,440
in the round wow

1658
00:55:17,430 --> 00:55:15,280
okay so then also if you look at some

1659
00:55:18,789 --> 00:55:17,440
other kind of cases they're from the bay

1660
00:55:20,549 --> 00:55:18,799
biscuit which i mentioned before right

1661
00:55:22,390 --> 00:55:20,559
across the eastern front because it was

1662
00:55:24,069 --> 00:55:22,400
seen there that was seen apparently in

1663
00:55:25,589 --> 00:55:24,079
norway right across north africa so

1664
00:55:27,670 --> 00:55:25,599
you're looking right across europe so

1665
00:55:29,829 --> 00:55:27,680
it's not just a few american night

1666
00:55:32,230 --> 00:55:29,839
fighter crews seeing them over a certain

1667
00:55:33,990 --> 00:55:32,240
part of western germany etc etc

1668
00:55:35,589 --> 00:55:34,000
it's much widespread more widespread

1669
00:55:38,230 --> 00:55:35,599
than that rather but also as i mentioned

1670
00:55:40,390 --> 00:55:38,240
before about the march 1942 story you

1671
00:55:42,309 --> 00:55:40,400
can set the time you know frame much

1672
00:55:45,670 --> 00:55:42,319
further back as well as previously been

1673
00:55:47,349 --> 00:55:45,680
sort of suggested so it's widespread and

1674
00:55:48,309 --> 00:55:47,359
then if you take which i didn't cover in

1675
00:55:50,150 --> 00:55:48,319
the book because it's just about

1676
00:55:52,230 --> 00:55:50,160
european cases but they've got all the

1677
00:55:53,349 --> 00:55:52,240
stories from the pacific as well and the

1678
00:55:55,750 --> 00:55:53,359
far east

1679
00:55:57,510 --> 00:55:55,760
and also ones in continental united

1680
00:56:01,349 --> 00:55:57,520
states as well there are other stories

1681
00:56:06,390 --> 00:56:03,030
it just reminds me of uh i was just

1682
00:56:08,549 --> 00:56:06,400
researching a similar case in 67

1683
00:56:10,230 --> 00:56:08,559
uh famous in portugal

1684
00:56:11,430 --> 00:56:10,240
which is just like like you mentioned

1685
00:56:13,349 --> 00:56:11,440
there's these uh

1686
00:56:14,549 --> 00:56:13,359
six lights you know it's around us a

1687
00:56:17,430 --> 00:56:14,559
four ship

1688
00:56:19,349 --> 00:56:17,440
of uh they look like t-37s actually but

1689
00:56:20,309 --> 00:56:19,359
uh anyway around a four ship of their

1690
00:56:22,069 --> 00:56:20,319
fighters

1691
00:56:23,510 --> 00:56:22,079
uh it's a famous case in portugal where

1692
00:56:24,950 --> 00:56:23,520
it just has these six lights you know

1693
00:56:27,589 --> 00:56:24,960
change different colors and they're just

1694
00:56:28,470 --> 00:56:27,599
flying all around um and it just kind of

1695
00:56:30,309 --> 00:56:28,480
thought

1696
00:56:32,950 --> 00:56:30,319
why this is so kind of powerful for me

1697
00:56:33,990 --> 00:56:32,960
your your book graham is because um

1698
00:56:35,270 --> 00:56:34,000
you know

1699
00:56:36,950 --> 00:56:35,280
and again i didn't really believe

1700
00:56:39,109 --> 00:56:36,960
anything until may and then it came out

1701
00:56:41,030 --> 00:56:39,119
these these videos and up until now you

1702
00:56:42,630 --> 00:56:41,040
could just say okay was the pilots just

1703
00:56:43,910 --> 00:56:42,640
seeing things you know they're just

1704
00:56:45,990 --> 00:56:43,920
seeing lights you could you could kind

1705
00:56:47,430 --> 00:56:46,000
of discount it that way but now with the

1706
00:56:48,789 --> 00:56:47,440
videos that came out now they're like

1707
00:56:50,470 --> 00:56:48,799
wait a minute we have videos that

1708
00:56:52,069 --> 00:56:50,480
they're actually seeing something right

1709
00:56:53,510 --> 00:56:52,079
so this is kind of the first we're kind

1710
00:56:54,870 --> 00:56:53,520
of locked down that hey they're actually

1711
00:56:57,430 --> 00:56:54,880
seeing something

1712
00:56:59,270 --> 00:56:57,440
um and now when we go back and look

1713
00:57:01,030 --> 00:56:59,280
uh now you can't just make the argument

1714
00:57:03,349 --> 00:57:01,040
that it was the pilots

1715
00:57:05,750 --> 00:57:03,359
kind of just miraculously seeing

1716
00:57:07,670 --> 00:57:05,760
invisible things in their brains um you

1717
00:57:09,430 --> 00:57:07,680
know now it's like hey

1718
00:57:11,030 --> 00:57:09,440
now we have to go back and and that just

1719
00:57:11,750 --> 00:57:11,040
means so much more to me now you know

1720
00:57:15,910 --> 00:57:11,760
that

1721
00:57:17,750 --> 00:57:15,920
we have video evidence now so when we go

1722
00:57:18,789 --> 00:57:17,760
back and it just makes it so powerful

1723
00:57:20,309 --> 00:57:18,799
because

1724
00:57:21,829 --> 00:57:20,319
uh you can't say it's a hoax either

1725
00:57:23,190 --> 00:57:21,839
right because now in today's age you

1726
00:57:24,150 --> 00:57:23,200
could basically admit you could make an

1727
00:57:25,670 --> 00:57:24,160
argument

1728
00:57:26,789 --> 00:57:25,680
um that there's

1729
00:57:29,270 --> 00:57:26,799
technologies that could have been

1730
00:57:30,870 --> 00:57:29,280
produced by 2021 that you could maybe do

1731
00:57:32,870 --> 00:57:30,880
you can make holograms or there's like

1732
00:57:35,030 --> 00:57:32,880
this laser technology that can like

1733
00:57:36,549 --> 00:57:35,040
supposedly make sounds at a distance you

1734
00:57:38,549 --> 00:57:36,559
could actually transmit sounds at a

1735
00:57:40,950 --> 00:57:38,559
distance through lasers

1736
00:57:42,549 --> 00:57:40,960
um but back then there's no such no such

1737
00:57:44,710 --> 00:57:42,559
piece so no possibility that's really

1738
00:57:46,870 --> 00:57:44,720
what makes it strong for me interesting

1739
00:57:48,549 --> 00:57:46,880
to hear that that these these lights are

1740
00:57:51,030 --> 00:57:48,559
all over all over

1741
00:57:52,549 --> 00:57:51,040
the world as well but by the way chris

1742
00:57:55,030 --> 00:57:52,559
do we have any idea like how many

1743
00:57:57,990 --> 00:57:55,040
sightings the chinese air forces had the

1744
00:57:59,910 --> 00:57:58,000
thai air force the indian air force

1745
00:58:01,589 --> 00:57:59,920
uh i mean i would think we would know

1746
00:58:04,470 --> 00:58:01,599
the new what that's going on in new

1747
00:58:07,510 --> 00:58:04,480
zealand i mean there's so many countries

1748
00:58:08,789 --> 00:58:07,520
that we have no idea the egyptian air

1749
00:58:11,109 --> 00:58:08,799
force i mean we could go on down the

1750
00:58:13,030 --> 00:58:11,119
line with guys that are and gals that

1751
00:58:15,109 --> 00:58:13,040
are flying sorties every single day and

1752
00:58:17,430 --> 00:58:15,119
every night that are having sightings

1753
00:58:19,589 --> 00:58:17,440
and we don't have access to that data

1754
00:58:21,270 --> 00:58:19,599
but i mean come on this is a worldwide

1755
00:58:23,030 --> 00:58:21,280
phenomenon i mean

1756
00:58:26,069 --> 00:58:23,040
you know people could focus on the us

1757
00:58:27,670 --> 00:58:26,079
government all they want there are

1758
00:58:29,430 --> 00:58:27,680
hundreds of governments that are not

1759
00:58:31,109 --> 00:58:29,440
talking about it and we know that

1760
00:58:32,870 --> 00:58:31,119
sightings are occurring because while

1761
00:58:34,470 --> 00:58:32,880
their military's not talking about it

1762
00:58:36,230 --> 00:58:34,480
their civilians are and they're posting

1763
00:58:37,510 --> 00:58:36,240
them on youtube

1764
00:58:39,030 --> 00:58:37,520
why do you think they're not talking

1765
00:58:41,510 --> 00:58:39,040
about it i guess you know what what

1766
00:58:43,510 --> 00:58:41,520
happened between when you said 40 47 i

1767
00:58:45,430 --> 00:58:43,520
guess and then 95 you know what was that

1768
00:58:46,950 --> 00:58:45,440
big gap what do you what do you think it

1769
00:58:48,470 --> 00:58:46,960
may be that they came in in possession

1770
00:58:50,710 --> 00:58:48,480
of some information they just got so

1771
00:58:52,309 --> 00:58:50,720
scared that they want nobody needs to

1772
00:58:54,870 --> 00:58:52,319
nobody can know about this

1773
00:58:57,030 --> 00:58:54,880
but it could be something else um i i'm

1774
00:59:00,069 --> 00:58:57,040
i'm not great at kind of throwing out

1775
00:59:01,510 --> 00:59:00,079
theories about why things happen uh deal

1776
00:59:03,829 --> 00:59:01,520
if you read the book you'll see i deal

1777
00:59:05,670 --> 00:59:03,839
with nuts and bolts things i can prove

1778
00:59:06,390 --> 00:59:05,680
things i can sort of talk with with any

1779
00:59:08,230 --> 00:59:06,400
great

1780
00:59:09,829 --> 00:59:08,240
you know kind of conviction whereas when

1781
00:59:11,990 --> 00:59:09,839
i start to think about things a bit more

1782
00:59:14,549 --> 00:59:12,000
kind of more blue sky thinking i'm a bit

1783
00:59:16,069 --> 00:59:14,559
less like kind of certain about what why

1784
00:59:17,270 --> 00:59:16,079
and i just get the point where i go i

1785
00:59:21,430 --> 00:59:17,280
don't know

1786
00:59:22,950 --> 00:59:21,440
um but that's as far as i get half the

1787
00:59:24,710 --> 00:59:22,960
time because i'm not privy to the

1788
00:59:26,069 --> 00:59:24,720
information i'm not privy to the details

1789
00:59:27,910 --> 00:59:26,079
and sometimes i don't even know the

1790
00:59:29,750 --> 00:59:27,920
motivation you know because i might be

1791
00:59:30,789 --> 00:59:29,760
able to put myself in people's shoes but

1792
00:59:32,150 --> 00:59:30,799
then i might come up with a different

1793
00:59:34,150 --> 00:59:32,160
sort of answer that somebody else does

1794
00:59:35,829 --> 00:59:34,160
back then so i don't know in terms of

1795
00:59:37,589 --> 00:59:35,839
the wartime sightings they're basically

1796
00:59:40,470 --> 00:59:37,599
a microcosm of whatever's happened

1797
00:59:42,549 --> 00:59:40,480
afterwards so yes okay modern neufolgi

1798
00:59:44,789 --> 00:59:42,559
started in 1947 with kenneth arnold and

1799
00:59:46,470 --> 00:59:44,799
with roswell but actually the kind of

1800
00:59:48,470 --> 00:59:46,480
things that were seen during the wall

1801
00:59:50,789 --> 00:59:48,480
the lights the some like kind of

1802
00:59:52,789 --> 00:59:50,799
cigar-shaped objects torpedoes and other

1803
00:59:54,630 --> 00:59:52,799
things or something like an upturned

1804
00:59:57,270 --> 00:59:54,640
bathtub that was seen in russia over

1805
00:59:59,190 --> 00:59:57,280
russia watching a battle one day

1806
01:00:01,109 --> 00:59:59,200
things like that you know they're kind

1807
01:00:02,870 --> 01:00:01,119
of things that have been seen like since

1808
01:00:05,589 --> 01:00:02,880
as well and in various times you know

1809
01:00:06,870 --> 01:00:05,599
from 1947 onwards so really

1810
01:00:08,150 --> 01:00:06,880
maybe if people should think about

1811
01:00:09,030 --> 01:00:08,160
setting that clock a little bit further

1812
01:00:10,870 --> 01:00:09,040
back

1813
01:00:12,309 --> 01:00:10,880
and i know why they do it for 1947

1814
01:00:14,069 --> 01:00:12,319
because what will do with the a bomb you

1815
01:00:15,910 --> 01:00:14,079
know explosions and the tests and all

1816
01:00:16,870 --> 01:00:15,920
that kind of thing but

1817
01:00:18,390 --> 01:00:16,880
really

1818
01:00:21,190 --> 01:00:18,400
you know nuclear fission was invented in

1819
01:00:23,510 --> 01:00:21,200
1938 the the manhattan the manhattan

1820
01:00:25,030 --> 01:00:23,520
project kicked off in 1942 so if

1821
01:00:26,789 --> 01:00:25,040
somebody is let's say for argument's

1822
01:00:28,789 --> 01:00:26,799
sake somebody's watching us and watching

1823
01:00:30,230 --> 01:00:28,799
our development they probably knew that

1824
01:00:32,309 --> 01:00:30,240
you know people were looking about with

1825
01:00:33,430 --> 01:00:32,319
you know atomic fission long before we

1826
01:00:34,870 --> 01:00:33,440
actually managed to get a bomb put

1827
01:00:36,230 --> 01:00:34,880
together so

1828
01:00:38,309 --> 01:00:36,240
you know if you're going to go down that

1829
01:00:39,349 --> 01:00:38,319
kind of road then you have to probably

1830
01:00:40,789 --> 01:00:39,359
credit them with a little bit more

1831
01:00:41,910 --> 01:00:40,799
intelligence and they were probably

1832
01:00:43,349 --> 01:00:41,920
watching this long before that we

1833
01:00:46,309 --> 01:00:43,359
actually you know before the trinity

1834
01:00:47,990 --> 01:00:46,319
test so that that's possibly the way i

1835
01:00:50,230 --> 01:00:48,000
look at it but i don't really go that

1836
01:00:51,670 --> 01:00:50,240
too far into that kind of right realm of

1837
01:00:53,430 --> 01:00:51,680
you know sort of thinking in the book

1838
01:00:55,030 --> 01:00:53,440
i'd rather just limit it to look these

1839
01:00:57,109 --> 01:00:55,040
things happened you know it's in

1840
01:00:58,950 --> 01:00:57,119
historical records never mind people

1841
01:01:00,950 --> 01:00:58,960
just coming forward and telling you know

1842
01:01:02,789 --> 01:01:00,960
their stories you know maybe a few years

1843
01:01:05,430 --> 01:01:02,799
or 10 years 20 years after the after the

1844
01:01:07,670 --> 01:01:05,440
event they are written down in raf

1845
01:01:10,549 --> 01:01:07,680
records and united states army air force

1846
01:01:12,950 --> 01:01:10,559
records and others as well so yeah they

1847
01:01:14,549 --> 01:01:12,960
do appear what they were again that's a

1848
01:01:17,030 --> 01:01:14,559
different question right do you get a

1849
01:01:18,870 --> 01:01:17,040
sense that this is a function of

1850
01:01:21,829 --> 01:01:18,880
uh

1851
01:01:23,270 --> 01:01:21,839
military activity right so you know i

1852
01:01:25,829 --> 01:01:23,280
think about the fact that every day

1853
01:01:27,910 --> 01:01:25,839
we've got thousands of of uh commercial

1854
01:01:29,190 --> 01:01:27,920
airplanes in our skies we're not hearing

1855
01:01:30,549 --> 01:01:29,200
a lot about this because we got a lot we

1856
01:01:31,829 --> 01:01:30,559
got a lot of eyeballs in those planes

1857
01:01:33,349 --> 01:01:31,839
it's not just pilots we have people

1858
01:01:35,190 --> 01:01:33,359
looking out the window all the time

1859
01:01:36,789 --> 01:01:35,200
we're not seeing it what we are seeing

1860
01:01:39,510 --> 01:01:36,799
here in the what you're sharing with us

1861
01:01:41,030 --> 01:01:39,520
is an increase in activity

1862
01:01:44,309 --> 01:01:41,040
correlated with

1863
01:01:45,270 --> 01:01:44,319
presence in the skies of of aggressive

1864
01:01:46,950 --> 01:01:45,280
intent

1865
01:01:48,870 --> 01:01:46,960
and so i wonder you know is there a

1866
01:01:50,710 --> 01:01:48,880
through line there and we certainly hear

1867
01:01:52,630 --> 01:01:50,720
about it with you know the nimitz strike

1868
01:01:53,829 --> 01:01:52,640
group and whatnot but but i'd be curious

1869
01:01:55,910 --> 01:01:53,839
to know and i don't know to what extent

1870
01:01:59,029 --> 01:01:55,920
you've looked at any other

1871
01:02:01,829 --> 01:01:59,039
major conflicts that involved air power

1872
01:02:03,910 --> 01:02:01,839
so uh the korean war vietnam war other

1873
01:02:05,349 --> 01:02:03,920
other you know iraq all these sort of

1874
01:02:07,589 --> 01:02:05,359
different instances where there may be

1875
01:02:09,270 --> 01:02:07,599
have been a high presence of military

1876
01:02:11,430 --> 01:02:09,280
activity in the sky if there was a

1877
01:02:12,950 --> 01:02:11,440
similar uptick in sighting reporting

1878
01:02:14,630 --> 01:02:12,960
it's certainly true that the numbers of

1879
01:02:16,549 --> 01:02:14,640
aircraft in the skies at only one time

1880
01:02:18,870 --> 01:02:16,559
during world war ii was huge and it was

1881
01:02:20,789 --> 01:02:18,880
unprecedented and you didn't just have

1882
01:02:22,470 --> 01:02:20,799
one or two people in an open top biplane

1883
01:02:23,910 --> 01:02:22,480
like you did in the wa in world war one

1884
01:02:26,069 --> 01:02:23,920
you had you know sort of seven eight

1885
01:02:27,430 --> 01:02:26,079
nine people in some cases ten people in

1886
01:02:29,270 --> 01:02:27,440
american aircraft

1887
01:02:31,270 --> 01:02:29,280
on board on the same aircraft you know

1888
01:02:33,190 --> 01:02:31,280
watching the skies all the time so it

1889
01:02:34,630 --> 01:02:33,200
was natural that the number of sightings

1890
01:02:36,230 --> 01:02:34,640
would increase because you have tens of

1891
01:02:37,270 --> 01:02:36,240
thousands of people in the sky at any

1892
01:02:39,029 --> 01:02:37,280
one time

1893
01:02:41,029 --> 01:02:39,039
now in the first world war apparently

1894
01:02:42,710 --> 01:02:41,039
there are sightings i know of a book

1895
01:02:44,710 --> 01:02:42,720
that covers that i've never actually

1896
01:02:47,589 --> 01:02:44,720
read it and i must admit i'm not looked

1897
01:02:49,029 --> 01:02:47,599
into the cases but i'm aware they exist

1898
01:02:50,870 --> 01:02:49,039
and it's not just one or two either

1899
01:02:51,670 --> 01:02:50,880
apparently there are quite a few there

1900
01:02:54,069 --> 01:02:51,680
are

1901
01:02:55,270 --> 01:02:54,079
similar cases from the korean conflict

1902
01:02:57,910 --> 01:02:55,280
as well

1903
01:02:59,589 --> 01:02:57,920
of things being seen there so yeah and

1904
01:03:01,349 --> 01:02:59,599
of course there's also

1905
01:03:04,230 --> 01:03:01,359
sightings from vietnam

1906
01:03:06,710 --> 01:03:04,240
so you can look to the various conflicts

1907
01:03:09,190 --> 01:03:06,720
throughout history in terms of aerial

1908
01:03:10,230 --> 01:03:09,200
participation and you come across

1909
01:03:12,150 --> 01:03:10,240
reports

1910
01:03:15,190 --> 01:03:12,160
i don't know about once from the the two

1911
01:03:16,789 --> 01:03:15,200
iraq wars but i'm sure there will be

1912
01:03:18,710 --> 01:03:16,799
um you might you gentlemen might be able

1913
01:03:19,829 --> 01:03:18,720
to inform me if there is but i'm not

1914
01:03:22,069 --> 01:03:19,839
aware of any but that doesn't mean you

1915
01:03:23,029 --> 01:03:22,079
say there aren't any um

1916
01:03:24,470 --> 01:03:23,039
so

1917
01:03:26,309 --> 01:03:24,480
and there will and the recorded peace

1918
01:03:29,029 --> 01:03:26,319
time during the cold war there were

1919
01:03:31,589 --> 01:03:29,039
reports as well of you know of migs

1920
01:03:34,150 --> 01:03:31,599
going to intercept you know various

1921
01:03:35,910 --> 01:03:34,160
things that the russians saw uh in some

1922
01:03:38,549 --> 01:03:35,920
cases apparently losing aircraft and

1923
01:03:41,270 --> 01:03:38,559
pilots uh there's also a case of a of a

1924
01:03:43,750 --> 01:03:41,280
cuban mig-21 apparently being shot down

1925
01:03:45,109 --> 01:03:43,760
by a ufo at one stage again i'm not

1926
01:03:47,910 --> 01:03:45,119
entirely privy to the details but i've

1927
01:03:49,829 --> 01:03:47,920
heard of the case so there are you know

1928
01:03:51,990 --> 01:03:49,839
other stories but in terms of conflicts

1929
01:03:53,829 --> 01:03:52,000
nathan yes definitely there there may

1930
01:03:55,750 --> 01:03:53,839
well be a correlation between the number

1931
01:03:58,470 --> 01:03:55,760
of people up there and the intensity of

1932
01:03:59,510 --> 01:03:58,480
the kind of conflict and whatever's

1933
01:04:00,230 --> 01:03:59,520
watching

1934
01:04:02,950 --> 01:04:00,240
but

1935
01:04:04,789 --> 01:04:02,960
i mean i don't like to go theorize about

1936
01:04:06,549 --> 01:04:04,799
what these things are but people have

1937
01:04:08,390 --> 01:04:06,559
asked me before and i come up with this

1938
01:04:09,990 --> 01:04:08,400
just as an example i don't necessarily

1939
01:04:11,270 --> 01:04:10,000
subscribe to it but it's something i

1940
01:04:13,510 --> 01:04:11,280
think look you know if had the

1941
01:04:16,390 --> 01:04:13,520
capability i'd love to do this imagine

1942
01:04:17,349 --> 01:04:16,400
the 20 the year 2500 we invent time

1943
01:04:19,029 --> 01:04:17,359
travel

1944
01:04:20,069 --> 01:04:19,039
where would you like to go if it was

1945
01:04:21,670 --> 01:04:20,079
something where you didn't affect the

1946
01:04:23,750 --> 01:04:21,680
past like but the fire effect you could

1947
01:04:25,750 --> 01:04:23,760
just go and watch as a interested

1948
01:04:27,750 --> 01:04:25,760
observer and it was some way of getting

1949
01:04:29,270 --> 01:04:27,760
our presence into that time you know

1950
01:04:30,950 --> 01:04:29,280
where it didn't interact too much but it

1951
01:04:32,470 --> 01:04:30,960
did a little bit but it was a way of

1952
01:04:34,069 --> 01:04:32,480
seeing what happened in the past where

1953
01:04:35,430 --> 01:04:34,079
would you want to go for some people it

1954
01:04:37,190 --> 01:04:35,440
might be roman britain it might be

1955
01:04:38,950 --> 01:04:37,200
watching the roman wall being built what

1956
01:04:40,950 --> 01:04:38,960
could be watched um nelson's victory at

1957
01:04:42,710 --> 01:04:40,960
trafalgar or it could be i don't know um

1958
01:04:44,470 --> 01:04:42,720
you know going to see um armstrong lying

1959
01:04:45,990 --> 01:04:44,480
on the moon or something yeah for me

1960
01:04:47,270 --> 01:04:46,000
it'd be world war two and it would

1961
01:04:49,270 --> 01:04:47,280
actually be the eastern front because

1962
01:04:50,710 --> 01:04:49,280
that's the the actual the the fighting i

1963
01:04:52,710 --> 01:04:50,720
was i'm most interested in and that's

1964
01:04:53,670 --> 01:04:52,720
what i read up a lot but that's where

1965
01:04:54,789 --> 01:04:53,680
i'd go

1966
01:04:56,230 --> 01:04:54,799
whereas other people might have

1967
01:04:57,349 --> 01:04:56,240
different places now could it be

1968
01:04:58,710 --> 01:04:57,359
something as simple as that could be

1969
01:04:59,670 --> 01:04:58,720
people from the future watching us in

1970
01:05:01,750 --> 01:04:59,680
the past

1971
01:05:02,690 --> 01:05:01,760
who knows but i want to be at woodstock

1972
01:05:05,670 --> 01:05:02,700
graham

1973
01:05:06,549 --> 01:05:05,680
[Laughter]

1974
01:05:11,510 --> 01:05:06,559
right

1975
01:05:15,750 --> 01:05:13,029
well interestingly too we're talking

1976
01:05:16,710 --> 01:05:15,760
about periods in history that are that

1977
01:05:18,069 --> 01:05:16,720
have

1978
01:05:19,510 --> 01:05:18,079
very little

1979
01:05:22,309 --> 01:05:19,520
videographic

1980
01:05:24,630 --> 01:05:22,319
evidence of and so this is a fascinating

1981
01:05:27,029 --> 01:05:24,640
theory uh we have less photographic

1982
01:05:28,870 --> 01:05:27,039
evidence of these events less video

1983
01:05:30,390 --> 01:05:28,880
evidence of the these events whereas the

1984
01:05:33,349 --> 01:05:30,400
modern conflicts

1985
01:05:35,029 --> 01:05:33,359
there is more uh data available maybe

1986
01:05:36,789 --> 01:05:35,039
not necessarily like when all looking at

1987
01:05:38,309 --> 01:05:36,799
gun camera footage of what happened in

1988
01:05:40,789 --> 01:05:38,319
you know in the iraq conflicts and

1989
01:05:41,910 --> 01:05:40,799
whatnot in afghanistan but nevertheless

1990
01:05:45,029 --> 01:05:41,920
these are peers that are kind of

1991
01:05:45,750 --> 01:05:45,039
shrouded in a little bit of uh of of uh

1992
01:05:49,670 --> 01:05:45,760
the

1993
01:05:50,630 --> 01:05:49,680
but being able to get back into and just

1994
01:05:53,029 --> 01:05:50,640
see it

1995
01:05:54,950 --> 01:05:53,039
and and and observe that's a fascinating

1996
01:05:56,710 --> 01:05:54,960
theory yeah i mean if you've seen the

1997
01:05:57,990 --> 01:05:56,720
photographs on the internet about the

1998
01:06:00,309 --> 01:05:58,000
foo fighters and you see these kind of

1999
01:06:02,150 --> 01:06:00,319
little amorphous blobs behind what are

2000
01:06:04,309 --> 01:06:02,160
usually japanese aircraft they're often

2001
01:06:05,510 --> 01:06:04,319
labeled as british or american or german

2002
01:06:08,069 --> 01:06:05,520
but don't believe it they're all

2003
01:06:09,430 --> 01:06:08,079
japanese uh or muslim japanese or other

2004
01:06:10,950 --> 01:06:09,440
now those could just be photographic

2005
01:06:12,390 --> 01:06:10,960
defects because there's no context to

2006
01:06:14,069 --> 01:06:12,400
any of these pictures we don't know

2007
01:06:16,230 --> 01:06:14,079
where they were taken who took them

2008
01:06:18,069 --> 01:06:16,240
which squadron which unit you know where

2009
01:06:19,670 --> 01:06:18,079
which raid which date all this kind of

2010
01:06:22,470 --> 01:06:19,680
thing and as far as i'm concerned they

2011
01:06:24,549 --> 01:06:22,480
mean nothing because that could for me

2012
01:06:26,870 --> 01:06:24,559
just be a mark on the film or an or

2013
01:06:28,069 --> 01:06:26,880
error in the development process because

2014
01:06:30,950 --> 01:06:28,079
the technology back there wasn't as

2015
01:06:33,510 --> 01:06:30,960
great um and there is no real evidence

2016
01:06:35,510 --> 01:06:33,520
of the foo fighters beyond testimony and

2017
01:06:37,109 --> 01:06:35,520
beyond information official records

2018
01:06:38,630 --> 01:06:37,119
where as you get later on you get as you

2019
01:06:40,150 --> 01:06:38,640
say gun camera footage you get flare

2020
01:06:41,670 --> 01:06:40,160
footage you know you get all the modern

2021
01:06:43,750 --> 01:06:41,680
technology but those sensors weren't

2022
01:06:47,190 --> 01:06:43,760
available during world war ii airborne

2023
01:06:49,190 --> 01:06:47,200
radar was effectively um a guy in the

2024
01:06:51,029 --> 01:06:49,200
back of an aircraft

2025
01:06:52,630 --> 01:06:51,039
like hunched over a box which the

2026
01:06:54,069 --> 01:06:52,640
display didn't like you know go round

2027
01:06:54,950 --> 01:06:54,079
round circle like you see in the films

2028
01:06:57,029 --> 01:06:54,960
it was like it looked like an

2029
01:06:58,950 --> 01:06:57,039
oscilloscope in terms of the

2030
01:07:00,309 --> 01:06:58,960
display and they had to work out from

2031
01:07:02,789 --> 01:07:00,319
that it was like kind of you know trying

2032
01:07:04,950 --> 01:07:02,799
to work out a puzzle from what whether

2033
01:07:06,710 --> 01:07:04,960
the bearing and the height and the the

2034
01:07:08,390 --> 01:07:06,720
the speed of the aircraft from this kind

2035
01:07:10,470 --> 01:07:08,400
of like little bouncing trace on the

2036
01:07:12,470 --> 01:07:10,480
oscilloscope and it was only it was only

2037
01:07:13,910 --> 01:07:12,480
effective for five miles or so so you

2038
01:07:15,670 --> 01:07:13,920
had to have a ground station that had to

2039
01:07:17,750 --> 01:07:15,680
vector you to within more or less

2040
01:07:19,349 --> 01:07:17,760
striking distance of your target and

2041
01:07:21,029 --> 01:07:19,359
then you could then the airborne set

2042
01:07:23,029 --> 01:07:21,039
would then take over because it would

2043
01:07:25,910 --> 01:07:23,039
you know it was that primitive

2044
01:07:28,390 --> 01:07:25,920
um now most of these foo fighters within

2045
01:07:30,309 --> 01:07:28,400
apart from a couple of cases were never

2046
01:07:32,069 --> 01:07:30,319
picked up on radar so there's another

2047
01:07:34,069 --> 01:07:32,079
thing as well so it wasn't as if they

2048
01:07:36,069 --> 01:07:34,079
had any other kind of cooperation from

2049
01:07:37,510 --> 01:07:36,079
the ground there's one famous story

2050
01:07:40,549 --> 01:07:37,520
about one of the night fighter pants

2051
01:07:42,870 --> 01:07:40,559
over over belgium uh or uh yeah and uh

2052
01:07:45,270 --> 01:07:42,880
sorry over france um in november or

2053
01:07:48,150 --> 01:07:45,280
december 1944 and he's chased by one of

2054
01:07:49,829 --> 01:07:48,160
these red lights um and he radios the

2055
01:07:51,589 --> 01:07:49,839
the ground station to say you know have

2056
01:07:54,150 --> 01:07:51,599
you got it you know you know can he see

2057
01:07:55,510 --> 01:07:54,160
it because we can't and they turn around

2058
01:07:57,190 --> 01:07:55,520
saying but there's nothing up there with

2059
01:07:58,470 --> 01:07:57,200
you you're not you're on your own you

2060
01:08:00,710 --> 01:07:58,480
know and yeah you've been chased around

2061
01:08:02,309 --> 01:08:00,720
by this red light so that even then

2062
01:08:03,750 --> 01:08:02,319
decides well is the washi anything

2063
01:08:05,029 --> 01:08:03,760
anything subs you know was there any

2064
01:08:06,390 --> 01:08:05,039
substance to these lights or whether

2065
01:08:07,910 --> 01:08:06,400
just light

2066
01:08:09,510 --> 01:08:07,920
because nobody could really tell they

2067
01:08:11,430 --> 01:08:09,520
couldn't see anything in any form behind

2068
01:08:12,870 --> 01:08:11,440
them but then of course there's another

2069
01:08:16,309 --> 01:08:12,880
thing which i haven't mentioned at all

2070
01:08:18,630 --> 01:08:16,319
during this conversation but in sort of

2071
01:08:21,269 --> 01:08:18,640
september october 1944 they started

2072
01:08:24,550 --> 01:08:21,279
seeing what they said with jet fighters

2073
01:08:26,789 --> 01:08:24,560
at night this is the america

2074
01:08:28,709 --> 01:08:26,799
started reporting them and in some cases

2075
01:08:30,149 --> 01:08:28,719
they opened fire them and shot them down

2076
01:08:32,149 --> 01:08:30,159
and the gunners claimed them it was

2077
01:08:34,550 --> 01:08:32,159
being destroyed so watching them go down

2078
01:08:36,229 --> 01:08:34,560
in flames some of them would um describe

2079
01:08:38,390 --> 01:08:36,239
as being batwinged some of them were

2080
01:08:40,390 --> 01:08:38,400
just jets but then again the the

2081
01:08:42,390 --> 01:08:40,400
intelligence reports ratify that to be

2082
01:08:44,149 --> 01:08:42,400
fast-moving lights and that's all they

2083
01:08:46,149 --> 01:08:44,159
say but they were called jets because

2084
01:08:47,269 --> 01:08:46,159
the raf crews well intelligence were

2085
01:08:49,110 --> 01:08:47,279
also thinking the germans are going to

2086
01:08:49,990 --> 01:08:49,120
start feeling these night fighter jets

2087
01:08:51,749 --> 01:08:50,000
because they were doing it in the

2088
01:08:53,189 --> 01:08:51,759
daytime but actually the germans didn't

2089
01:08:55,990 --> 01:08:53,199
feel the proper night fighter jet until

2090
01:08:57,110 --> 01:08:56,000
march 1945. so

2091
01:08:58,470 --> 01:08:57,120
you know you have to think well okay

2092
01:08:59,910 --> 01:08:58,480
what were they seeing because they were

2093
01:09:01,669 --> 01:08:59,920
definitely seeing before the germans put

2094
01:09:03,910 --> 01:09:01,679
jets up in the air at night in any case

2095
01:09:05,910 --> 01:09:03,920
even for trials and and did they shoot

2096
01:09:07,430 --> 01:09:05,920
them down is that well

2097
01:09:09,510 --> 01:09:07,440
if you look at the records and you look

2098
01:09:10,709 --> 01:09:09,520
at the raf squadron records they claim

2099
01:09:12,390 --> 01:09:10,719
them as kills

2100
01:09:14,630 --> 01:09:12,400
they have they have fairly detailed

2101
01:09:16,149 --> 01:09:14,640
reports in quite a few cases where they

2102
01:09:17,669 --> 01:09:16,159
say they open fire them they either

2103
01:09:19,749 --> 01:09:17,679
catch fire and they fall towards the

2104
01:09:20,870 --> 01:09:19,759
ground or they dive away

2105
01:09:23,990 --> 01:09:20,880
now

2106
01:09:25,910 --> 01:09:24,000
because again they don't fit profiles of

2107
01:09:28,229 --> 01:09:25,920
anything in terms of the german

2108
01:09:30,070 --> 01:09:28,239
offensive capabilities whether um

2109
01:09:32,149 --> 01:09:30,080
actually put into into combat in the

2110
01:09:35,110 --> 01:09:32,159
operational service on the drawing board

2111
01:09:36,630 --> 01:09:35,120
or or in test nothing nothing like that

2112
01:09:38,789 --> 01:09:36,640
at all is there any questions the idea

2113
01:09:40,550 --> 01:09:38,799
that that could have been uh

2114
01:09:41,990 --> 01:09:40,560
put out as purposeful sort of

2115
01:09:42,789 --> 01:09:42,000
disinformation

2116
01:09:44,550 --> 01:09:42,799
by

2117
01:09:46,470 --> 01:09:44,560
the allied powers

2118
01:09:48,070 --> 01:09:46,480
well that in from those records nathan

2119
01:09:49,510 --> 01:09:48,080
didn't go anywhere there were internal

2120
01:09:51,910 --> 01:09:49,520
records so it's not as if they were

2121
01:09:53,669 --> 01:09:51,920
passed on to anybody it wasn't like uh

2122
01:09:55,750 --> 01:09:53,679
kind of a propaganda news [\h__\h] or a

2123
01:09:57,830 --> 01:09:55,760
newspaper or a radio boson that would be

2124
01:09:59,350 --> 01:09:57,840
picked up by the german forces and it

2125
01:10:00,870 --> 01:09:59,360
wasn't something that went to like a

2126
01:10:02,709 --> 01:10:00,880
third like a kind of like a friendly

2127
01:10:04,070 --> 01:10:02,719
country to be passed on to the germans

2128
01:10:06,310 --> 01:10:04,080
that way so

2129
01:10:09,510 --> 01:10:06,320
there's no kind of benefit to write this

2130
01:10:10,390 --> 01:10:09,520
kind of thing down in a obscure squadron

2131
01:10:12,229 --> 01:10:10,400
log

2132
01:10:13,430 --> 01:10:12,239
i can i can i can speak i could actually

2133
01:10:17,350 --> 01:10:13,440
speak to this

2134
01:10:18,709 --> 01:10:17,360
um on multi-crew airplanes i have heard

2135
01:10:21,270 --> 01:10:18,719
let us say

2136
01:10:23,270 --> 01:10:21,280
one or two tall tales that have been

2137
01:10:25,189 --> 01:10:23,280
told that the majority of the community

2138
01:10:26,149 --> 01:10:25,199
does not believe what occurred in the

2139
01:10:27,510 --> 01:10:26,159
air

2140
01:10:28,550 --> 01:10:27,520
and

2141
01:10:31,350 --> 01:10:28,560
i won't

2142
01:10:35,910 --> 01:10:31,360
just

2143
01:10:38,149 --> 01:10:35,920
people will

2144
01:10:39,830 --> 01:10:38,159
maybe invent certain events so that

2145
01:10:41,590 --> 01:10:39,840
maybe there's a medal that follows or

2146
01:10:44,550 --> 01:10:41,600
something like that so that's very true

2147
01:10:45,990 --> 01:10:44,560
um

2148
01:10:47,910 --> 01:10:46,000
if it was one or two you know

2149
01:10:49,590 --> 01:10:47,920
occurrences you could probably accept

2150
01:10:51,350 --> 01:10:49,600
that was the case but actually there's

2151
01:10:53,669 --> 01:10:51,360
quite a few of them

2152
01:10:55,910 --> 01:10:53,679
and it's not just in september october

2153
01:10:58,709 --> 01:10:55,920
1944 this actually goes right through to

2154
01:11:00,149 --> 01:10:58,719
about february and march as well so i

2155
01:11:01,590 --> 01:11:00,159
think you missed my inference my

2156
01:11:03,590 --> 01:11:01,600
influence is not that it didn't happen

2157
01:11:05,030 --> 01:11:03,600
but then they splashed it

2158
01:11:07,030 --> 01:11:05,040
right because they destroyed it that

2159
01:11:09,510 --> 01:11:07,040
part yeah that's what i mean

2160
01:11:12,229 --> 01:11:09,520
if you if you say i saw something is

2161
01:11:13,350 --> 01:11:12,239
okay yeah if you say we killed it and we

2162
01:11:15,350 --> 01:11:13,360
it we

2163
01:11:17,270 --> 01:11:15,360
made it fall out of the sky and burn in

2164
01:11:19,110 --> 01:11:17,280
flames that i might

2165
01:11:21,189 --> 01:11:19,120
i might attribute that to tall tales

2166
01:11:23,110 --> 01:11:21,199
based on what you've the information you

2167
01:11:24,950 --> 01:11:23,120
gave us that preceded that yeah but but

2168
01:11:26,390 --> 01:11:24,960
actually i want to move on to the mod a

2169
01:11:28,709 --> 01:11:26,400
little bit because we don't have a lot

2170
01:11:31,510 --> 01:11:28,719
of time left and i want to hit up

2171
01:11:33,510 --> 01:11:31,520
what you think about uh what's going on

2172
01:11:35,030 --> 01:11:33,520
in the because you are part of your

2173
01:11:38,149 --> 01:11:35,040
organization if you would please tell

2174
01:11:41,830 --> 01:11:38,159
people the uab media uap media uk so yes

2175
01:11:43,270 --> 01:11:41,840
we're kind of well adams

2176
01:11:45,110 --> 01:11:43,280
the signal

2177
01:11:46,630 --> 01:11:45,120
andy

2178
01:11:48,790 --> 01:11:46,640
yeah so we're all a bunch of like-minded

2179
01:11:50,630 --> 01:11:48,800
individuals who are trying to put um

2180
01:11:52,149 --> 01:11:50,640
some pressure on not just the government

2181
01:11:54,470 --> 01:11:52,159
but also

2182
01:11:56,310 --> 01:11:54,480
other kind of officials and also the

2183
01:11:57,910 --> 01:11:56,320
media to try and just have a bit of a

2184
01:12:00,630 --> 01:11:57,920
more enlightened a bit elevated

2185
01:12:02,470 --> 01:12:00,640
conversation about uap in general rather

2186
01:12:04,229 --> 01:12:02,480
than just the kind of mindset at the

2187
01:12:05,669 --> 01:12:04,239
moment that seems to permeate the mod

2188
01:12:07,430 --> 01:12:05,679
the ministry of defense in the uk which

2189
01:12:09,270 --> 01:12:07,440
is nothing of defense significance has

2190
01:12:12,070 --> 01:12:09,280
happened within the last 50 years and

2191
01:12:13,750 --> 01:12:12,080
that is the that is the actual mantra

2192
01:12:15,750 --> 01:12:13,760
that they keep trotting out every time

2193
01:12:17,430 --> 01:12:15,760
there's either an official debate such

2194
01:12:19,189 --> 01:12:17,440
as in the house of lords which is our

2195
01:12:21,110 --> 01:12:19,199
non-elected chamber because we have two

2196
01:12:23,110 --> 01:12:21,120
houses the house of commons the house of

2197
01:12:25,270 --> 01:12:23,120
lords in parliament and they had a

2198
01:12:27,430 --> 01:12:25,280
debate back um back in the early summer

2199
01:12:29,270 --> 01:12:27,440
where that was the answer to pretty much

2200
01:12:31,030 --> 01:12:29,280
every question was asked on the subject

2201
01:12:32,790 --> 01:12:31,040
which followed on the heels of the

2202
01:12:35,510 --> 01:12:32,800
preliminary summary that you had in the

2203
01:12:37,750 --> 01:12:35,520
states regarding the uap issue um and to

2204
01:12:38,790 --> 01:12:37,760
which they just shut the debate down so

2205
01:12:41,189 --> 01:12:38,800
as far as the

2206
01:12:42,790 --> 01:12:41,199
mod are concerned in britain there's no

2207
01:12:45,350 --> 01:12:42,800
there's no story there's nothing to be

2208
01:12:46,630 --> 01:12:45,360
answered it just doesn't happen here but

2209
01:12:48,390 --> 01:12:46,640
then you have to wonder what the

2210
01:12:51,830 --> 01:12:48,400
threshold is for them to take it

2211
01:12:54,630 --> 01:12:51,840
seriously publicly what would constitute

2212
01:12:56,550 --> 01:12:54,640
um a matter of defense significance

2213
01:12:58,310 --> 01:12:56,560
because for my money if something

2214
01:13:00,790 --> 01:12:58,320
anomalous is flying near off the coast

2215
01:13:02,149 --> 01:13:00,800
of within the 12 mile limit in the uk

2216
01:13:03,750 --> 01:13:02,159
and they're not and they're not going to

2217
01:13:05,590 --> 01:13:03,760
scramble fighters after it even though

2218
01:13:07,750 --> 01:13:05,600
it might be sitting over a sensitive

2219
01:13:10,790 --> 01:13:07,760
nuclear or defense installation then

2220
01:13:12,630 --> 01:13:10,800
that must be a defense matter surely

2221
01:13:15,430 --> 01:13:12,640
and those kind of things have happened

2222
01:13:16,950 --> 01:13:15,440
so within the last 50 years and you have

2223
01:13:19,350 --> 01:13:16,960
to have a look at the rental shipments

2224
01:13:22,070 --> 01:13:19,360
and some other famous ones the calvin

2225
01:13:23,030 --> 01:13:22,080
incident from 1990 um for them to say

2226
01:13:25,430 --> 01:13:23,040
there's no

2227
01:13:28,149 --> 01:13:25,440
defense significance that means either

2228
01:13:30,390 --> 01:13:28,159
that they're telling porkies or

2229
01:13:32,070 --> 01:13:30,400
they know what these things are and

2230
01:13:33,430 --> 01:13:32,080
they've considered them not to be a

2231
01:13:35,350 --> 01:13:33,440
threat or they're just sticking their

2232
01:13:37,030 --> 01:13:35,360
head in the sand so

2233
01:13:38,790 --> 01:13:37,040
you have to wonder which one's true it's

2234
01:13:40,870 --> 01:13:38,800
probably the middle one in terms of the

2235
01:13:42,470 --> 01:13:40,880
calvinism because that was probably one

2236
01:13:44,550 --> 01:13:42,480
of yours

2237
01:13:46,790 --> 01:13:44,560
do you do you think that uh there's

2238
01:13:48,870 --> 01:13:46,800
should be a big phone home like for the

2239
01:13:51,510 --> 01:13:48,880
something analogous to the big phone

2240
01:13:53,430 --> 01:13:51,520
home uk where you know we get together a

2241
01:13:55,590 --> 01:13:53,440
bunch of people then contact you know

2242
01:13:57,750 --> 01:13:55,600
members of uh the house of commons or

2243
01:14:00,470 --> 01:13:57,760
and or the house of lords if you know at

2244
01:14:02,550 --> 01:14:00,480
the moment there is only a very very

2245
01:14:04,390 --> 01:14:02,560
small handful of elected well the

2246
01:14:06,790 --> 01:14:04,400
non-elected representatives the lords

2247
01:14:09,590 --> 01:14:06,800
and ladies in the house of lords who

2248
01:14:11,350 --> 01:14:09,600
asked questions of a kind of sympathetic

2249
01:14:14,390 --> 01:14:11,360
nature to people like me

2250
01:14:16,149 --> 01:14:14,400
about what the what the issue is now

2251
01:14:17,990 --> 01:14:16,159
that's not the same accounts the mps in

2252
01:14:19,910 --> 01:14:18,000
the house of commons we don't actually

2253
01:14:21,750 --> 01:14:19,920
know of any at the moment who have come

2254
01:14:23,590 --> 01:14:21,760
out publicly to say that they're

2255
01:14:26,709 --> 01:14:23,600
interested in the subject and they want

2256
01:14:31,750 --> 01:14:29,189
i found a live photo of them yeah thank

2257
01:14:34,630 --> 01:14:31,760
you nathan that sums it up entirely yeah

2258
01:14:36,870 --> 01:14:34,640
so really no under the radar kind of uh

2259
01:14:39,030 --> 01:14:36,880
well here here's the here's the rub we

2260
01:14:40,630 --> 01:14:39,040
don't know if there is at the moment

2261
01:14:43,669 --> 01:14:40,640
because they're not approaching us as

2262
01:14:45,430 --> 01:14:43,679
yet but again you know that could change

2263
01:14:47,590 --> 01:14:45,440
and it could change overnight it

2264
01:14:49,510 --> 01:14:47,600
wouldn't take much for a few people to

2265
01:14:51,590 --> 01:14:49,520
come out quite covertly and say look i'm

2266
01:14:52,790 --> 01:14:51,600
interested can you tell me more what you

2267
01:14:54,870 --> 01:14:52,800
know what can you tell me who can you

2268
01:14:56,790 --> 01:14:54,880
put me in touch with so that could

2269
01:14:59,030 --> 01:14:56,800
happen but at the moment we're not

2270
01:15:01,189 --> 01:14:59,040
seeing that but you know that that said

2271
01:15:03,590 --> 01:15:01,199
that could change so having a big phone

2272
01:15:06,310 --> 01:15:03,600
home at the moment probably wouldn't get

2273
01:15:08,470 --> 01:15:06,320
us very far because actually our tabloid

2274
01:15:10,709 --> 01:15:08,480
press would rip it to treads

2275
01:15:12,310 --> 01:15:10,719
as well we have a we have a kind of

2276
01:15:13,590 --> 01:15:12,320
thing in this country where they build

2277
01:15:15,750 --> 01:15:13,600
people up and then they knock people

2278
01:15:17,590 --> 01:15:15,760
down and there's still enough of a

2279
01:15:20,229 --> 01:15:17,600
stigma within the popular press in this

2280
01:15:22,310 --> 01:15:20,239
country and also the bbc et cetera that

2281
01:15:25,430 --> 01:15:22,320
that they'll be quite happy

2282
01:15:27,110 --> 01:15:25,440
open season now if that changes that

2283
01:15:28,870 --> 01:15:27,120
groundswell of opinion changes so we get

2284
01:15:29,669 --> 01:15:28,880
a few mps which are prepared to break

2285
01:15:31,590 --> 01:15:29,679
cover

2286
01:15:33,830 --> 01:15:31,600
and say publicly that they want some

2287
01:15:36,070 --> 01:15:33,840
kind of investigation or want to do more

2288
01:15:38,229 --> 01:15:36,080
then that that's better and we would

2289
01:15:39,750 --> 01:15:38,239
then have a position where we could do

2290
01:15:42,149 --> 01:15:39,760
that kind of thing and have that kind of

2291
01:15:44,790 --> 01:15:42,159
graph you know grassroots you know um

2292
01:15:46,630 --> 01:15:44,800
kind of movement from ordinary people

2293
01:15:48,870 --> 01:15:46,640
approaching elected officials but at the

2294
01:15:51,990 --> 01:15:48,880
moment they would just climb up and they

2295
01:15:53,750 --> 01:15:52,000
would also in terms of public responses

2296
01:15:54,950 --> 01:15:53,760
you would get the same thing because

2297
01:15:57,270 --> 01:15:54,960
what they do is they don't come back

2298
01:15:59,030 --> 01:15:57,280
with their own responses if you contact

2299
01:16:00,630 --> 01:15:59,040
them they say they're going to pass that

2300
01:16:02,709 --> 01:16:00,640
up to you know the people who are in

2301
01:16:04,870 --> 01:16:02,719
charge of that particular issue so the

2302
01:16:06,709 --> 01:16:04,880
ministry of defense or the the secretary

2303
01:16:08,709 --> 01:16:06,719
of state for defense etc because i've

2304
01:16:10,229 --> 01:16:08,719
continued on my own mp about this they

2305
01:16:11,669 --> 01:16:10,239
don't you know they don't send you like

2306
01:16:13,669 --> 01:16:11,679
information saying oh yes this is what i

2307
01:16:14,950 --> 01:16:13,679
think about them too much they might

2308
01:16:16,790 --> 01:16:14,960
send you a couple of words but actually

2309
01:16:18,709 --> 01:16:16,800
there's nothing concrete they pass it up

2310
01:16:20,229 --> 01:16:18,719
the chain and then of course from them

2311
01:16:22,709 --> 01:16:20,239
when you get the response back from the

2312
01:16:24,390 --> 01:16:22,719
chain it's the there's nothing 50 years

2313
01:16:26,229 --> 01:16:24,400
you know defense significance so you

2314
01:16:27,910 --> 01:16:26,239
don't get anywhere

2315
01:16:29,910 --> 01:16:27,920
what about a reporting process you know

2316
01:16:30,950 --> 01:16:29,920
because i guess in the in the us at

2317
01:16:32,550 --> 01:16:30,960
least

2318
01:16:35,189 --> 01:16:32,560
it sounds like our pilots will have a

2319
01:16:36,870 --> 01:16:35,199
reporting process for uaps have you seen

2320
01:16:38,870 --> 01:16:36,880
anything and or heard about anything in

2321
01:16:40,870 --> 01:16:38,880
the chris who knows we don't know yeah

2322
01:16:42,950 --> 01:16:40,880
we certainly don't know no

2323
01:16:44,870 --> 01:16:42,960
you you across america it seems that

2324
01:16:47,270 --> 01:16:44,880
you're much more open whether it's not

2325
01:16:49,270 --> 01:16:47,280
only in terms of the of your government

2326
01:16:50,790 --> 01:16:49,280
but also in terms of your military uh

2327
01:16:52,950 --> 01:16:50,800
you know the information that percolates

2328
01:16:53,910 --> 01:16:52,960
out into the public realm we don't have

2329
01:16:55,510 --> 01:16:53,920
that

2330
01:16:57,110 --> 01:16:55,520
we we are still kind of stuck in the

2331
01:16:58,870 --> 01:16:57,120
past in terms of no we probably don't

2332
01:17:01,189 --> 01:16:58,880
need to know that and but they don't

2333
01:17:03,030 --> 01:17:01,199
tell us and it's oh yeah yeah 50 years

2334
01:17:05,590 --> 01:17:03,040
it's fine don't ask any more questions

2335
01:17:07,350 --> 01:17:05,600
and that's it that's what we get so yeah

2336
01:17:09,270 --> 01:17:07,360
we're way behind you in terms of any

2337
01:17:11,830 --> 01:17:09,280
kind of openness and then he kind of

2338
01:17:14,070 --> 01:17:11,840
seems any kind of desire to be like that

2339
01:17:15,910 --> 01:17:14,080
as well it just you just don't see it's

2340
01:17:17,750 --> 01:17:15,920
there at the moment is it possible that

2341
01:17:19,590 --> 01:17:17,760
it's a sort of five eyes you know that's

2342
01:17:21,350 --> 01:17:19,600
it's follow the leader situation it's

2343
01:17:23,910 --> 01:17:21,360
the us is kind of leading the narrative

2344
01:17:26,229 --> 01:17:23,920
here there's no need to sort of

2345
01:17:27,669 --> 01:17:26,239
get out and and kind of take the lead

2346
01:17:29,510 --> 01:17:27,679
just follow the lead of what the u.s oh

2347
01:17:31,189 --> 01:17:29,520
yes i think that's that's that's really

2348
01:17:33,669 --> 01:17:31,199
true because in most things we follow

2349
01:17:35,510 --> 01:17:33,679
you you know over a lot of things as

2350
01:17:38,070 --> 01:17:35,520
well and we're like the junior partner

2351
01:17:40,390 --> 01:17:38,080
in that kind of relationship so i i i

2352
01:17:41,910 --> 01:17:40,400
guess that yes you know we will follow

2353
01:17:44,229 --> 01:17:41,920
you in terms of things like that and we

2354
01:17:47,030 --> 01:17:44,239
just keep quit quiet about it but also

2355
01:17:48,630 --> 01:17:47,040
there could be a kind of case for

2356
01:17:50,550 --> 01:17:48,640
we might just be going on our own we

2357
01:17:51,910 --> 01:17:50,560
might the people who have it here might

2358
01:17:53,830 --> 01:17:51,920
just think well there's nothing to it or

2359
01:17:55,830 --> 01:17:53,840
they might have told that or they might

2360
01:17:57,750 --> 01:17:55,840
be being told that's the case by other

2361
01:17:59,910 --> 01:17:57,760
people who they rely on and they're

2362
01:18:00,709 --> 01:17:59,920
actually the secret keepers

2363
01:18:02,870 --> 01:18:00,719
so

2364
01:18:04,550 --> 01:18:02,880
we don't again we don't know we get you

2365
01:18:06,630 --> 01:18:04,560
get hints of things but that's all you

2366
01:18:08,310 --> 01:18:06,640
get um and of course the you know

2367
01:18:10,310 --> 01:18:08,320
they're not perfect in terms of keeping

2368
01:18:12,630 --> 01:18:10,320
the secrets there's been things that

2369
01:18:14,550 --> 01:18:12,640
have come out occasionally but it's not

2370
01:18:16,950 --> 01:18:14,560
enough to be able to go aha you know

2371
01:18:19,669 --> 01:18:16,960
there you go you know whereas you've had

2372
01:18:21,910 --> 01:18:19,679
that in the states you know uh we send

2373
01:18:24,630 --> 01:18:21,920
freedom of information requests as well

2374
01:18:26,470 --> 01:18:24,640
but we don't get much in return because

2375
01:18:27,990 --> 01:18:26,480
um you know they'll say oh it's to do

2376
01:18:29,590 --> 01:18:28,000
with the defense matter or it's uh you

2377
01:18:32,070 --> 01:18:29,600
know something like that and then they

2378
01:18:34,070 --> 01:18:32,080
can stonewall it quite a lot um so you

2379
01:18:35,430 --> 01:18:34,080
do end up getting nowhere here whereas i

2380
01:18:36,070 --> 01:18:35,440
think it's a bit easier across where you

2381
01:18:39,030 --> 01:18:36,080
are

2382
01:18:42,390 --> 01:18:39,040
hey graham um so i contacted a member

2383
01:18:44,950 --> 01:18:42,400
you know the 47 squadron right

2384
01:18:46,550 --> 01:18:44,960
45 you mean the hercules squadron yeah

2385
01:18:49,030 --> 01:18:46,560
they're not they're not at line them

2386
01:18:50,550 --> 01:18:49,040
where are they now oh god you tell me i

2387
01:18:52,229 --> 01:18:50,560
don't know anymore they're at another

2388
01:18:55,030 --> 01:18:52,239
they moved they were at line them for

2389
01:18:58,630 --> 01:18:55,040
years but probably a prize yeah maybe

2390
01:19:00,390 --> 01:18:58,640
bryson orton right um they were our sis

2391
01:19:02,870 --> 01:19:00,400
brother sister squadron so we had an

2392
01:19:04,070 --> 01:19:02,880
exchange where we'd send a pilot there

2393
01:19:06,470 --> 01:19:04,080
and they would send a pilot to the

2394
01:19:08,390 --> 01:19:06,480
states and we would fly he'd fly talent

2395
01:19:10,390 --> 01:19:08,400
twos and we'd fly there

2396
01:19:12,390 --> 01:19:10,400
super h2 that they had and they had

2397
01:19:14,790 --> 01:19:12,400
amazing aviators in that squadron the

2398
01:19:17,590 --> 01:19:14,800
pick of the litter of their special ops

2399
01:19:19,270 --> 01:19:17,600
aviation so i contacted one of them uh

2400
01:19:21,110 --> 01:19:19,280
well you knew you guys know i had troy

2401
01:19:23,510 --> 01:19:21,120
on the show with chris and troy's

2402
01:19:26,070 --> 01:19:23,520
willing to come on again and i contacted

2403
01:19:28,950 --> 01:19:26,080
this former member of the uh

2404
01:19:30,229 --> 01:19:28,960
uh 47 squadron who flies for ba

2405
01:19:33,270 --> 01:19:30,239
and uh

2406
01:19:36,790 --> 01:19:33,280
he he's like uh he didn't even respond

2407
01:19:39,830 --> 01:19:36,800
yeah and he responded that he took my my

2408
01:19:41,430 --> 01:19:39,840
request like on linkedin you know and we

2409
01:19:43,510 --> 01:19:41,440
became friends but he didn't want to

2410
01:19:45,750 --> 01:19:43,520
answer when i asked him about this topic

2411
01:19:47,830 --> 01:19:45,760
and wanted to talk about it

2412
01:19:49,830 --> 01:19:47,840
that's one you get a lot you get so far

2413
01:19:51,590 --> 01:19:49,840
into conversations and then you get you

2414
01:19:52,630 --> 01:19:51,600
run into this brick wall where they just

2415
01:19:54,470 --> 01:19:52,640
you know say you don't want to talk

2416
01:19:55,990 --> 01:19:54,480
about it or they just shut it down they

2417
01:19:57,590 --> 01:19:56,000
sail there's nothing to it

2418
01:19:59,830 --> 01:19:57,600
there was a lot of stigma in terms of

2419
01:20:01,990 --> 01:19:59,840
reporting from british airways years ago

2420
01:20:03,750 --> 01:20:02,000
where it was considered detrimental to a

2421
01:20:05,270 --> 01:20:03,760
pilot's career if they mentioned

2422
01:20:06,790 --> 01:20:05,280
anything about this so they didn't

2423
01:20:08,629 --> 01:20:06,800
there's only very very few people

2424
01:20:10,550 --> 01:20:08,639
actually came forward for whatever

2425
01:20:11,830 --> 01:20:10,560
reason and reported things and that's

2426
01:20:13,910 --> 01:20:11,840
possibly the same in the military as

2427
01:20:16,070 --> 01:20:13,920
well uh in terms of the rf or the fleet

2428
01:20:18,149 --> 01:20:16,080
air armor or the or the

2429
01:20:20,310 --> 01:20:18,159
army air corps that when they say things

2430
01:20:22,149 --> 01:20:20,320
then maybe you just encouraged not to

2431
01:20:23,669 --> 01:20:22,159
report it because

2432
01:20:25,590 --> 01:20:23,679
of maybe stigma or maybe because

2433
01:20:27,510 --> 01:20:25,600
ridicule from their squadron mates or

2434
01:20:29,510 --> 01:20:27,520
maybe just there might be some kind of

2435
01:20:31,669 --> 01:20:29,520
um you know official

2436
01:20:33,750 --> 01:20:31,679
kind of instruction that they may have

2437
01:20:35,750 --> 01:20:33,760
actually have a reporting uh kind of

2438
01:20:37,910 --> 01:20:35,760
procedure where the details are passed

2439
01:20:39,510 --> 01:20:37,920
on but that's the end of the story and

2440
01:20:41,270 --> 01:20:39,520
that might be you know right you can't

2441
01:20:43,430 --> 01:20:41,280
ask questions about this anymore because

2442
01:20:45,910 --> 01:20:43,440
back in the day back in the war when the

2443
01:20:47,750 --> 01:20:45,920
pilots reported things they never got to

2444
01:20:49,990 --> 01:20:47,760
know what this you know what the answer

2445
01:20:51,350 --> 01:20:50,000
was and that must be the case now as

2446
01:20:53,110 --> 01:20:51,360
well i guess you know your

2447
01:20:54,870 --> 01:20:53,120
contemporaries if you if they ever

2448
01:20:56,550 --> 01:20:54,880
reported incidents with things they

2449
01:20:58,470 --> 01:20:56,560
didn't understand chances are they would

2450
01:21:00,629 --> 01:20:58,480
never ever hear anything more about it

2451
01:21:02,149 --> 01:21:00,639
once they'd report it you know that it

2452
01:21:03,990 --> 01:21:02,159
would never come back to them would it

2453
01:21:05,910 --> 01:21:04,000
no i mean chris and i would not have

2454
01:21:07,590 --> 01:21:05,920
been uh would not have been talking

2455
01:21:10,229 --> 01:21:07,600
about this because that's like saying

2456
01:21:12,229 --> 01:21:10,239
hey i don't want to fly anymore yeah so

2457
01:21:14,950 --> 01:21:12,239
uh that's you know i mean it's it's

2458
01:21:17,189 --> 01:21:14,960
career suicide and it's only because of

2459
01:21:18,870 --> 01:21:17,199
the courage of others uh that came

2460
01:21:21,669 --> 01:21:18,880
before us like dave

2461
01:21:24,070 --> 01:21:21,679
and fravor and luis elizondo and so on

2462
01:21:26,070 --> 01:21:24,080
and so forth and chris mellon yeah we

2463
01:21:27,990 --> 01:21:26,080
feel like hey we can we could talk about

2464
01:21:29,669 --> 01:21:28,000
it but we're gonna get a last question

2465
01:21:32,149 --> 01:21:29,679
from everybody and then we're gonna

2466
01:21:35,030 --> 01:21:32,159
we're gonna uh let graham go about his

2467
01:21:37,110 --> 01:21:35,040
evening so nathan you go ahead yeah i'm

2468
01:21:40,070 --> 01:21:37,120
curious if you came across any

2469
01:21:40,950 --> 01:21:40,080
uh or looked into any reporting of usos

2470
01:21:43,830 --> 01:21:40,960
during

2471
01:21:45,990 --> 01:21:43,840
world war ii they're on um in terms of

2472
01:21:48,310 --> 01:21:46,000
usos there aren't any in the european

2473
01:21:50,470 --> 01:21:48,320
theater operations but there are stories

2474
01:21:52,149 --> 01:21:50,480
of things in the pacific where it might

2475
01:21:53,510 --> 01:21:52,159
have been seen coming out of the water

2476
01:21:55,270 --> 01:21:53,520
but again that's something i haven't got

2477
01:21:57,270 --> 01:21:55,280
into yet but that's the next book i'm

2478
01:22:00,550 --> 01:21:57,280
writing so hopefully i'll i'll come up

2479
01:22:01,910 --> 01:22:00,560
with uh things like that there we go

2480
01:22:03,910 --> 01:22:01,920
great for us

2481
01:22:05,910 --> 01:22:03,920
yeah i had a question um i just read the

2482
01:22:07,510 --> 01:22:05,920
uh skim markers of the pentagon

2483
01:22:11,430 --> 01:22:07,520
book graham

2484
01:22:13,669 --> 01:22:11,440
very interesting uh i guess my uh my my

2485
01:22:16,070 --> 01:22:13,679
first question i guess is is there a

2486
01:22:17,669 --> 01:22:16,080
skinwalkers kind of area of the uk you

2487
01:22:20,070 --> 01:22:17,679
know i hear so much about the uk there's

2488
01:22:21,990 --> 01:22:20,080
like so many sightings you know you have

2489
01:22:23,110 --> 01:22:22,000
stoneheads you have all this this

2490
01:22:27,750 --> 01:22:23,120
ancient

2491
01:22:29,110 --> 01:22:27,760
walkers area skin walker branch not as

2492
01:22:30,229 --> 01:22:29,120
such in terms of some of the things that

2493
01:22:31,510 --> 01:22:30,239
happen there but there's certainly

2494
01:22:32,950 --> 01:22:31,520
places where there's been a lot of

2495
01:22:35,030 --> 01:22:32,960
activity and one in particular is what

2496
01:22:36,950 --> 01:22:35,040
they call the welsh triangle and it was

2497
01:22:39,189 --> 01:22:36,960
from the 1970s where there was a spate

2498
01:22:41,510 --> 01:22:39,199
of reports of various strange things

2499
01:22:44,149 --> 01:22:41,520
some coming out of the water one going

2500
01:22:46,790 --> 01:22:44,159
into solid rock as well and this was off

2501
01:22:48,390 --> 01:22:46,800
a particular part of western wales um so

2502
01:22:50,629 --> 01:22:48,400
and it got the nickname the wet the

2503
01:22:52,070 --> 01:22:50,639
welsh triangle uh there are books on the

2504
01:22:54,709 --> 01:22:52,080
subject as well but there's there was

2505
01:22:56,870 --> 01:22:54,719
also a school um sighting where kids in

2506
01:22:58,870 --> 01:22:56,880
the school had seen uh something you

2507
01:23:00,550 --> 01:22:58,880
know nearby so yeah there's a few

2508
01:23:01,350 --> 01:23:00,560
stories like that but in terms of having

2509
01:23:44,950 --> 01:23:01,360
a

2510
01:23:46,629 --> 01:23:44,960
two f-15s they they pick something up on

2511
01:23:48,070 --> 01:23:46,639
radar that they they go and check it out

2512
01:23:50,070 --> 01:23:48,080
and they can't identify it they

2513
01:23:51,590 --> 01:23:50,080
basically say it looks like a meteorite

2514
01:23:52,629 --> 01:23:51,600
or something yeah it looks like a rock

2515
01:23:53,910 --> 01:23:52,639
didn't they yeah they thought this

2516
01:23:55,669 --> 01:23:53,920
that's why they described it like the

2517
01:23:57,750 --> 01:23:55,679
floating rock uh

2518
01:23:59,669 --> 01:23:57,760
yeah it was picked up by uh by an

2519
01:24:02,790 --> 01:23:59,679
aircraft enthusiast listening to scatter

2520
01:24:07,350 --> 01:24:04,229
frequencies and they were actually

2521
01:24:09,750 --> 01:24:07,360
talking on a like a net aware frequency

2522
01:24:10,870 --> 01:24:09,760
um for the squadron um they'd also i

2523
01:24:13,590 --> 01:24:10,880
think they've been directed to the

2524
01:24:15,270 --> 01:24:13,600
target by by london military uh the the

2525
01:24:17,270 --> 01:24:15,280
one of their military control

2526
01:24:19,189 --> 01:24:17,280
frequencies to go and investigate it and

2527
01:24:20,950 --> 01:24:19,199
it was somewhere just not

2528
01:24:22,310 --> 01:24:20,960
the thing is i don't exactly know where

2529
01:24:23,830 --> 01:24:22,320
it was but i think it was somewhere just

2530
01:24:26,629 --> 01:24:23,840
north of lakenheath it wasn't too far

2531
01:24:28,550 --> 01:24:26,639
away from the base um but yeah it was

2532
01:24:31,510 --> 01:24:28,560
they described it as a rock and i think

2533
01:24:33,110 --> 01:24:31,520
one the pilots did several passes um to

2534
01:24:35,189 --> 01:24:33,120
try and work out what it was but it was

2535
01:24:36,950 --> 01:24:35,199
income i was talking to my f-16 buddy

2536
01:24:39,030 --> 01:24:36,960
last night you know at the reunion and

2537
01:24:41,350 --> 01:24:39,040
we were talking about this and

2538
01:24:42,550 --> 01:24:41,360
it just he agrees with me that you're

2539
01:24:44,390 --> 01:24:42,560
we're gonna be able to figure out what

2540
01:24:46,629 --> 01:24:44,400
it is you know i mean it's very

2541
01:24:47,750 --> 01:24:46,639
it would be very rare to to circle back

2542
01:24:49,830 --> 01:24:47,760
on something

2543
01:24:51,030 --> 01:24:49,840
you know because it can't just run away

2544
01:24:53,590 --> 01:24:51,040
you know so we should be able to catch

2545
01:24:55,030 --> 01:24:53,600
up to it but it's he agreed with me that

2546
01:24:57,189 --> 01:24:55,040
it seems like we would the pilot would

2547
01:24:58,790 --> 01:24:57,199
circle back around get and just get

2548
01:24:59,830 --> 01:24:58,800
closer to this thing in an orbit and

2549
01:25:01,830 --> 01:24:59,840
figure out what it is you know we're

2550
01:25:03,110 --> 01:25:01,840
just curious by nature he certainly had

2551
01:25:04,629 --> 01:25:03,120
a couple of goals i tried to work out

2552
01:25:06,070 --> 01:25:04,639
what it was but i i mean i don't know

2553
01:25:07,590 --> 01:25:06,080
what the constraints on the mission were

2554
01:25:09,590 --> 01:25:07,600
so i don't know what your fuel load was

2555
01:25:16,070 --> 01:25:09,600
you feel state whether you had it but i

2556
01:25:20,070 --> 01:25:18,149
um it's it's been out for a little while

2557
01:25:21,430 --> 01:25:20,080
now and i it was interesting because

2558
01:25:23,510 --> 01:25:21,440
they hear the

2559
01:25:25,510 --> 01:25:23,520
the the ground guys they were listening

2560
01:25:27,669 --> 01:25:25,520
to the pilot radio chatter you know and

2561
01:25:31,430 --> 01:25:27,679
i remember that was we're supposed to go

2562
01:25:33,590 --> 01:25:31,440
you know to our uh jam resistor or yeah

2563
01:25:34,870 --> 01:25:33,600
you know but uh back in the day back in

2564
01:25:36,310 --> 01:25:34,880
the day because i used to do that kind

2565
01:25:37,830 --> 01:25:36,320
of thing as well when i was much younger

2566
01:25:39,590 --> 01:25:37,840
and you could get you could buy

2567
01:25:41,189 --> 01:25:39,600
commercially available scanners that

2568
01:25:42,950 --> 01:25:41,199
would uh pick up things in the military

2569
01:25:45,030 --> 01:25:42,960
band quite easily so you could listen to

2570
01:25:46,070 --> 01:25:45,040
where to wear chat frequencies uh if you

2571
01:25:47,430 --> 01:25:46,080
were close enough and you had a good

2572
01:25:48,709 --> 01:25:47,440
enough aerial and the win in the

2573
01:25:52,149 --> 01:25:48,719
aircraft were nearby there was no

2574
01:25:53,990 --> 01:25:52,159
problem uh i would pick up dj's earlier

2575
01:25:56,310 --> 01:25:54,000
colleagues from the from the 1990s and

2576
01:25:57,669 --> 01:25:56,320
late 80s flying over here uh in

2577
01:25:59,350 --> 01:25:57,679
northumberland you know

2578
01:26:01,030 --> 01:25:59,360
late at night as well so you

2579
01:26:03,110 --> 01:26:01,040
occasionally hear them if you knew which

2580
01:26:05,189 --> 01:26:03,120
frequency they were using etc it was it

2581
01:26:06,950 --> 01:26:05,199
was relatively easy but that was the

2582
01:26:08,629 --> 01:26:06,960
hard part was trying to work out which

2583
01:26:11,110 --> 01:26:08,639
what they were using at different times

2584
01:26:13,030 --> 01:26:11,120
so this guy whoever he was it had much

2585
01:26:15,270 --> 01:26:13,040
to stumble upon this this um this

2586
01:26:17,430 --> 01:26:15,280
exchange he was obviously well-versed in

2587
01:26:19,750 --> 01:26:17,440
be able to track aircraft on missions

2588
01:26:21,350 --> 01:26:19,760
and listen to them hop from frequency to

2589
01:26:23,030 --> 01:26:21,360
frequency and the ones that couldn't be

2590
01:26:25,189 --> 01:26:23,040
jammed i think he was having difficulty

2591
01:26:26,870 --> 01:26:25,199
from where he was located being able to

2592
01:26:28,790 --> 01:26:26,880
hear the ground element of the

2593
01:26:30,149 --> 01:26:28,800
conversations yeah usually he's not

2594
01:26:31,669 --> 01:26:30,159
going to hear that yeah

2595
01:26:33,350 --> 01:26:31,679
that was the only thing

2596
01:26:35,350 --> 01:26:33,360
i can relate to that that was the only

2597
01:26:37,189 --> 01:26:35,360
thing he was he was he wasn't getting

2598
01:26:39,189 --> 01:26:37,199
but there's a guy in the states called

2599
01:26:41,270 --> 01:26:39,199
steve douglas who is the same kind of

2600
01:26:42,870 --> 01:26:41,280
guy he listens to a lot of stuff he was

2601
01:26:44,950 --> 01:26:42,880
the person i think who intercepted the

2602
01:26:46,310 --> 01:26:44,960
information about the american airlines

2603
01:26:47,510 --> 01:26:46,320
aircraft

2604
01:26:50,790 --> 01:26:47,520
go past

2605
01:26:52,550 --> 01:26:50,800
a little while back so there are people

2606
01:26:54,470 --> 01:26:52,560
like that around the world who

2607
01:26:55,910 --> 01:26:54,480
occasionally pick up things like this

2608
01:26:57,669 --> 01:26:55,920
you know and that kind of information is

2609
01:27:00,550 --> 01:26:57,679
like a little gold mine really

2610
01:27:03,189 --> 01:27:00,560
yeah i the the aviation uh

2611
01:27:05,270 --> 01:27:03,199
fanaticism in the uk which is a not only

2612
01:27:06,149 --> 01:27:05,280
in the uk but i guess in parts of europe

2613
01:27:08,390 --> 01:27:06,159
as well

2614
01:27:11,350 --> 01:27:08,400
it's a beautiful thing and it's much

2615
01:27:12,629 --> 01:27:11,360
much uh uh more widespread than it is in

2616
01:27:14,709 --> 01:27:12,639
the united states if you think people

2617
01:27:16,709 --> 01:27:14,719
love aviation here it's nothing like

2618
01:27:18,629 --> 01:27:16,719
when people show up to fairford and

2619
01:27:20,950 --> 01:27:18,639
asking you to sign flight orders that

2620
01:27:22,550 --> 01:27:20,960
they've got and just they've they're

2621
01:27:24,950 --> 01:27:22,560
sitting outside in mildenhall with

2622
01:27:26,470 --> 01:27:24,960
cameras uh just to watch you take off

2623
01:27:28,229 --> 01:27:26,480
like you know

2624
01:27:30,310 --> 01:27:28,239
a lot of americans are going to just as

2625
01:27:32,790 --> 01:27:30,320
many people do that but anyway graham

2626
01:27:35,510 --> 01:27:32,800
the last question i have for you

2627
01:27:37,270 --> 01:27:35,520
um and it's basically your perspective

2628
01:27:40,149 --> 01:27:37,280
so if you were to

2629
01:27:42,070 --> 01:27:40,159
have a message for ufo twitter and you

2630
01:27:44,310 --> 01:27:42,080
were to start off with something like

2631
01:27:47,189 --> 01:27:44,320
what i'd really love to see

2632
01:27:49,430 --> 01:27:47,199
from hashtag ufo twitter or the ufo

2633
01:27:51,110 --> 01:27:49,440
community at large is

2634
01:27:53,350 --> 01:27:51,120
well that's a question isn't it thanks a

2635
01:27:57,270 --> 01:27:55,750
we're not everyone buying it

2636
01:27:59,270 --> 01:27:57,280
how about a bit of love piece of

2637
01:28:01,030 --> 01:27:59,280
understanding

2638
01:28:02,470 --> 01:28:01,040
there you go not going to make it easy

2639
01:28:03,910 --> 01:28:02,480
that's it peace and understanding all

2640
01:28:07,270 --> 01:28:03,920
right

2641
01:28:09,669 --> 01:28:07,280
just like your brother john lennon man

2642
01:28:13,510 --> 01:28:09,679
so it was an absolute honor to have you

2643
01:28:16,310 --> 01:28:13,520
on it won't be the last uh we want to uh

2644
01:28:19,510 --> 01:28:16,320
keep you as as as part of our you know

2645
01:28:21,990 --> 01:28:19,520
our show rotation etc and uh and consult

2646
01:28:23,910 --> 01:28:22,000
you on these things um it takes an

2647
01:28:26,870 --> 01:28:23,920
enormous amount of work

2648
01:28:28,629 --> 01:28:26,880
and love and passion to be able to

2649
01:28:30,950 --> 01:28:28,639
investigate something like that and come

2650
01:28:33,830 --> 01:28:30,960
up with a book and it shows the

2651
01:28:35,430 --> 01:28:33,840
enthusiasm for aviation that you have

2652
01:28:36,950 --> 01:28:35,440
that then grew into

2653
01:28:40,149 --> 01:28:36,960
to ufology

2654
01:28:42,390 --> 01:28:40,159
uh and i i want to thank you uh on from

2655
01:28:45,430 --> 01:28:42,400
the bottom of my heart on behalf of uh

2656
01:28:47,189 --> 01:28:45,440
nathan the ufo community at large so

2657
01:28:49,350 --> 01:28:47,199
thank you for coming on please uh

2658
01:28:51,590 --> 01:28:49,360
promote everything and anything that you

2659
01:28:54,550 --> 01:28:51,600
have for your brothers uap

2660
01:28:56,870 --> 01:28:54,560
media uk your brothers signal

2661
01:28:57,910 --> 01:28:56,880
vinnie andy

2662
01:28:59,669 --> 01:28:57,920
go ahead so

2663
01:29:02,070 --> 01:28:59,679
in that case um i'd like people to have

2664
01:29:04,310 --> 01:29:02,080
a look at uap media dot uk the website

2665
01:29:06,790 --> 01:29:04,320
which is where a lot of our articles

2666
01:29:09,030 --> 01:29:06,800
appear written by members of our group

2667
01:29:10,950 --> 01:29:09,040
but also who subscribe to andy's that

2668
01:29:12,229 --> 01:29:10,960
ufo podcast

2669
01:29:14,550 --> 01:29:12,239
really good he's now going to show on

2670
01:29:16,790 --> 01:29:14,560
kgra oh

2671
01:29:18,310 --> 01:29:16,800
and obviously if you look at people on

2672
01:29:20,709 --> 01:29:18,320
through on twitter because you've got

2673
01:29:22,709 --> 01:29:20,719
people like dan the signal dan zetastrom

2674
01:29:24,870 --> 01:29:22,719
you've got adam goldsack you've got dave

2675
01:29:26,390 --> 01:29:24,880
partridge shadows of your mind magazine

2676
01:29:29,590 --> 01:29:26,400
um you've also got vinnie adams the

2677
01:29:31,590 --> 01:29:29,600
disclosure team he's on instagram so all

2678
01:29:33,830 --> 01:29:31,600
of those people are working

2679
01:29:35,750 --> 01:29:33,840
in terms of my book um ufos before

2680
01:29:38,550 --> 01:29:35,760
roswell the european food fight is 1940

2681
01:29:40,470 --> 01:29:38,560
to 1945. it's available to amazon so

2682
01:29:42,310 --> 01:29:40,480
wherever you live in the in the world if

2683
01:29:44,870 --> 01:29:42,320
you you know whichever amazon affiliate

2684
01:29:46,629 --> 01:29:44,880
you use you can you can find it there

2685
01:29:47,910 --> 01:29:46,639
you do a search for my my name you'll

2686
01:29:49,189 --> 01:29:47,920
find it as well

2687
01:29:50,390 --> 01:29:49,199
so that's that's how you get ahold of

2688
01:29:52,229 --> 01:29:50,400
that

2689
01:29:54,550 --> 01:29:52,239
my twitter handle is below there border

2690
01:29:56,390 --> 01:29:54,560
750 there's a link tree reference on the

2691
01:29:57,830 --> 01:29:56,400
in my profile and you can find

2692
01:29:59,510 --> 01:29:57,840
everything that i've done through that

2693
01:30:01,189 --> 01:29:59,520
as well so that's the easiest way really

2694
01:30:03,510 --> 01:30:01,199
and the book is called

2695
01:30:08,550 --> 01:30:03,520
the book is called ufos before roswell

2696
01:30:11,910 --> 01:30:10,229
baby we'll see you soon vinny i'm gonna

2697
01:30:13,189 --> 01:30:11,920
bring the noise

2698
01:30:15,110 --> 01:30:13,199
it really has been great to chat with

2699
01:30:17,669 --> 01:30:15,120
you you've made this history for me come

2700
01:30:19,110 --> 01:30:17,679
alive i mean i i really was riveted

2701
01:30:20,790 --> 01:30:19,120
during this entire conversation so thank

2702
01:30:23,669 --> 01:30:20,800
you so much and i also want to say thank

2703
01:30:25,270 --> 01:30:23,679
you to our listeners and watchers on of

2704
01:30:27,430 --> 01:30:25,280
the show good to see a lot of chatter in

2705
01:30:29,110 --> 01:30:27,440
the in the chat and chris thank you so

2706
01:30:30,870 --> 01:30:29,120
much for uh taking some time out of your

2707
01:30:31,990 --> 01:30:30,880
day to pop in and participate thanks for

2708
01:30:33,669 --> 01:30:32,000
inviting me

2709
01:30:34,709 --> 01:30:33,679
yeah very happy to be here thank you

2710
01:30:36,629 --> 01:30:34,719
great i'm gonna read your book for sure

2711
01:30:38,070 --> 01:30:36,639
100 percent next thank you it's great to

2712
01:30:39,669 --> 01:30:38,080
be able to see you in person chris and

2713
01:30:41,590 --> 01:30:39,679
talk to you so i enjoy our conversation

2714
01:30:43,590 --> 01:30:41,600
the other week uh dj nathan sorry about

2715
01:30:45,270 --> 01:30:43,600
the sound issues um my my earbuds have

2716
01:30:46,709 --> 01:30:45,280
never failed before but just something

2717
01:30:49,350 --> 01:30:46,719
happened it did tonight

2718
01:30:50,950 --> 01:30:49,360
love you man we are good man that and we

2719
01:30:52,790 --> 01:30:50,960
appreciate your time we're honored to

2720
01:30:55,030 --> 01:30:52,800
have you on the show as we are every

2721
01:30:57,990 --> 01:30:55,040
single person that decides that they

2722
01:31:00,310 --> 01:30:58,000
want to uh take some of their time and

2723
01:31:01,990 --> 01:31:00,320
come on here and have a discussion with

2724
01:31:03,990 --> 01:31:02,000
us and it's an honor some people have

2725
01:31:05,830 --> 01:31:04,000
nobody to talk to and we don't have that

2726
01:31:08,950 --> 01:31:05,840
issue so thank god

2727
01:31:10,709 --> 01:31:08,960
um for graeme rendell for chris lato for

2728
01:31:13,590 --> 01:31:10,719
my brother nathan

2729
01:31:16,390 --> 01:31:13,600
this is dj saying peace out one love and

2730
01:31:18,220 --> 01:31:16,400
we'll see you down the road